Ryzen

LunarMist

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I was rather surprised that 97% use Windows for games and most of the video cards are not very powerful.
What percentage of total gaming is that? Are all the XBoxers and PSers only a small proportion of gamers? Do the MAC and LINUX users have a PS/XBOX on the side or what?
 

sedrosken

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Bear in mind with that figure that Ryzen laptops are quite uncommon and a lot of folks have gaming laptops. You're not likely to get any of those without an Intel CPU and nVidia GPU. The Steam Deck has gone a long way to remedying that, though.

Xbox/PS/Switch are the lion's share of gaming, period. I'd say about 80% all told, and that's being quite generous to PC marketshare in that segment. Linux people are a small proportion of the PC population and don't tend to be super into gaming, while Mac users tend to be creative types with enough money to get a gaming PC on the side.
 

LunarMist

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I assumed that Ryzens were not very common, period. I confess to having no clue what normals/masses do with computers.
I'm roughly your parents' generation and we did not grow up with computers. More than half I know use the MAC, and the others Windows. I was talking with someone the other day that kept talking about the hard drive of a 2021 Windows laptop. :(
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
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I confess to having no clue what normals/masses do with computers.

Home users mostly use them as web/Facebook/word processing terminals at this point. This is a big reason why I don't have a problem advocating for ChromeOS devices. Even people who say things like "I use it for pictures" really mean that they're looking through photos they already have, rather than editing or even bothering to organize them.
 

Mercutio

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Most people don't have any idea what they have. Home users usually buy for a price point, but even that can be a bad idea because home users will do idiotic things like buy computers from the Home Shopping Network or go out of their way to find the one and only 17" notebook that still has an optical drive. I see a lot of relatively high income earners using laptops with Pentium or Celeron G CPUs because they don't see their computer as a priority and I see a lot of college-age people with over-specified machines because somebody was hoping they'd be able to do some gaming, even if those same people don't actually understand that fast/expensive computer is not necessarily a gaming machine. Conversely, I see a lot of relatively professional people with gaming laptops who don't need them, because their work gave them a budget to BYOD during the pandemic and they just asked their kid to get something.

From talking to people over time, people basically have managed to grok the idea that more RAM is better, higher CPU numbers are better (no matter where in the name those numbers are) and maybe a third of them are aware that a primary SSD is better than a giant mechanical drive, although plenty of people will still take 2TB spinning vs 500GB solid state. Anything more than that and you're probably talking to someone with at least a background in tech or, more likely, a gamer.
 

LunarMist

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I'm not disagreeing, but not sure how this relates to the Ryzens, that's all. :unsure:
 

LunarMist

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The performance of the 3950x was underwhelming on the lower cores. To some degree the 5950x was a mitigation of the suffering, but another $800 just 16+ months later. I stayed with the Rhizomes for 7950x so that I would not have to reinvent Windows.
I have no idea when there will be better CPUs, but I will decide on AMD vs. iNtel based on the specs, available motherboards, and to some degree power. I read that the half-ass 14th gen iNtel has such a huge draw that it absolutely needs the liquid coolers.
 

sedrosken

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Ryzen was more the start of AMD and Intel actually trading blows vs AMD having total dominion over the market. Intel was caught with their pants down at first, sure, but Coffee Lake and especially Alder are actually quite good performers. Intel just took way too long to bring pricing back to being reasonable. I went Ryzen back in I think 2020 because I was coming off of a 3570K build and I was sick of paying the Intel tax as I perceived it, but honestly, I've had so many little issues with the asmedia USB controllers that it's been a compelling argument for paying a friend to grab one of the Microcenter Alder combos for me. Thus far I've resisted, but I don't know that I'll hold out forever.

Basically, what'll happen is it'll randomly decide to drop all USB connections and reinitialize them. This is nearly transparent on something like a mouse or keyboard beyond a momentary loss of input and hearing the Windows disconnect/reconnect sound. It's a transfer-ending nightmare for copying something to or from a USB device. This happens on at least the 3 Ryzen boards I've had -- two B450M-Pro4s and a X470 Aorus --and I hear it happens a lot for some of my friends running Ryzen too.
 

LunarMist

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I have two X570 (one was top of the line and one was lesser), but don't recall any particular USB issues. The X670E board I have for the 7950x is more of the mid-grade variety, but still over $500 is not exactly cheap. Somehow I assumed the main USB were from the chipset for years now. My x670E only has one fast (3.2 Gen 2x2) USB-C in the rear, but that's probably a compromise with how the PCI lanes are all used. Having four M.2 and three full length PCIe slots is the priority. Does this mean anything? I think the generac USB hub might be a 2.5"->3.5' front panel thing that has 2 USB C and 2 USB A, all from one channel of an internal USB 3.0 header.

USB_X670E.png
 

LunarMist

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My older x570 is like this. Is ASMedia in there and I'm not seeing it?

X570_USB.png
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
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I don't have anything other that keyboard and trackball running through USB on anything. Sometimes I plug in a card reader, but only for as long as I need to read a card. This is also not anything I've noticed on either my workstation (Gigabyte TRX40) or spare PC (Some or other Gigabyte X570). What brand of boards are you buying?
 

sedrosken

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Both of my B450 boards are ASRock. My X470 in my main now is a Gigabyte. My friends report issues on everything from ASUS to Gigabyte to Biostar/MSI to even some OEM machines, all the way from the B350 chipsets on up to X570. None of us own Zen4 yet -- those of us inclined to upgrade bought Alder machines instead as most of them live near a Microcenter and were able to capitalize on a bundle. I'm not sure precisely where ASMedia would come in for you guys -- maybe it's for any USB provided beyond what's included in the chipset? Each board I've had reports at least one ASMedia controller, and they've all been similarly fussy. They're not outright unreliable, but it is an annoying issue. I've also taken to just not having anything important hooked up by USB, but in $currentYear when most peripherals are USB, that's a torturous existence.

1698857988482.png
 

Chewy509

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IIRC, AMD licensed and used one the ASMedia USB 3.x controller designs in their Ryzen chipsets, so you won't see as ASMedia, but rather as a AMD chipset controller. Motherboard manufacturers would often add additional USB controllers to boost the number of USB ports.

It was speculated that it was the ASMedia design used, was the root cause of some users experiencing dropped USB devices, especially when they used some sort of VR headset on the USB 2 and USB 3 ports on their systems.

Having used a number of ASMedia based USB devices and controllers in the past, always had mixed results with them. Some are great, zero issues with, others, well they were extremely problematic when stressed with high load.

At work, we were testing a number of different USB to SATA bridges, and we a number of devices (with the same ASMedia USB-SATA bridge chip) that would drop the USB device (we suspect the controller was resetting itself), when we exceeded a number of concurrent IO with large block transfers (think 32+ concurrent IOs at 1MB each). Other devices with a different ASMedia USB-SATA bridge chips worked perfectly fine under the same conditions.
 

Chewy509

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Appears I was slightly incorrect, it appears ASMedia designed the actual chipsets themselves...
Source for the above:
 

Mercutio

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I have no idea when there will be better CPUs, but I will decide on AMD vs. iNtel based on the specs, available motherboards, and to some degree power. I read that the half-ass 14th gen iNtel has such a huge draw that it absolutely needs the liquid coolers.

Intel seems to have dropped HEDT as a concept. My understanding is that too many users were buying Enthusiast CPUs and running them on workstation boards with big-boy I/O, so now you either get bragging rights CPU cores or lots of modest cores + decent I/O. And then there's the power draw. Intel 12th gen+ is nipping at the heels of AMD's workstation line. I'm sure those single-core high frequency highs are amazing but 280W is WAY too much power draw for something that's stuck with 30 PCIe lanes.

I'd have to look really hard to find a use case where the 5900X in my spare PC is out and out subjectively faster than my 3960X. Benchmarks say the 5900X should be faster per core, but there's really no point when I'm using the Ryzen 9 that I'm thinking "Well that's definitely faster than the big guy in the other room." I don't really use that computer for long processing jobs where I can judge; sometimes I export DNGs to have the copy of Lightroom do AI Noise Reduction, but that's not something I have on my workstation to compare. I suspect my Threadripper is going to wind up replacing my old file server but but I'm hoping to wait another generation of AMD desktop CPUs before I really think about it.

As for liquid cooling: it has a place, but it's one more thing to fail and one more thing to monitor. AMD in particular told people that the more expensive Zen4s should probably be liquid cooled. I've read a lot of things that suggest the cooling issues with the Raphael-based CPUs are the fault of a poorly designed heat spreader. Just another reason I'm happy with the PCs I have right now.
 

LunarMist

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Liquid cooling might be too noisy since the rad fans face upwards and the tower case is under a table right next to me. Fans exhausting out the rear are far more muffled and further away, near the wall. The key is what amount of power is used at low load, like 20-25% and if that is low enough to keep the fans quiet. It's not clear if the future AMD will be compatible with the old AM5 sockets and boards.
 

LunarMist

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Is there some reason to use the slower X3D CPU that has the mainboard problems at full power or is it just for video games?
I saw the 7950X3D was coming out, but rejected it in favor of the regular 7950X with the higher power drain.
 

Mercutio

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Is there some reason to use the slower X3D CPU that has the mainboard problems at full power or is it just for video games?
I saw the 7950X3D was coming out, but rejected it in favor of the regular 7950X with the higher power drain.

The 7950X has faster cores and it's cheaper. It's the one I'd buy too. The two CPUs are a push on content creation benchmarks so IMO the deciding factors are the $100 lower price vs the 50W lower power draw.
 

LunarMist

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The cost is practically irrelevant for individual systems. I suppose it matters for major manufacturers or those small builders making a few dozen at a time. If the next gen arrives in 2024 and is much better then it's a moot point.
 
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