Dimmable CFL Floodlights for Recessed Lighting

timwhit

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My new place has around 30 recessed floodlights throughout all rooms. Currently they are all incandescent and I would like to replace them with CFLs, if it's cost effective. Many of the switches have dimmers on them and I like that functionality, so the CFLs should work well with dimmers. I believe that most of current bulbs are 45 watts, so I will use this as the minimum equivalent wattage that I would like, even though most of the CFLs I've seen so far are higher. Any suggestions of where to look?
 

Clocker

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I would love to know where to find dimmable CFLs too!
 

udaman

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My new place has around 30 recessed floodlights throughout all rooms. Currently they are all incandescent and I would like to replace them with CFLs, if it's cost effective. Many of the switches have dimmers on them and I like that functionality, so the CFLs should work well with dimmers. I believe that most of current bulbs are 45 watts, so I will use this as the minimum equivalent wattage that I would like, even though most of the CFLs I've seen so far are higher. Any suggestions of where to look?

What do you mean by recessed? Fixtures are entirely built up inside the ceilings? If it's an entirely enclosed fixture (no air space for heat to vent *above* the bulb, with standard incandescent sockets), then you'd likely not find any CFL that will work for full rated life...if the replacement CFL is 17w or greater, they generate too much heat and fry themselves. I just replaced a 30w CFL spiral light that was supposedly a "decade" life, lol...burned out at the base in less than 6 months. This was in an fairly large enclosed fixture probably 8x8x12in, with no heat venting in the design, light used less than 8hrs/day on average. Lower wattage CFL seem to be able to be mounted base down without frying themselves as soon as the higher wattage versions. Usually there is very fine print that mentions all the restrictions for CFL, which is why they are not a very good replacement for incan bulbs (can just see jtr ranting about that point).

You do know you can get LED floodlamps for that application? Not that you would be happy with the beam pattern, or looking at all those multipoint light sources embedded in a floodlamp like replacement bulb. I'm sure jtr can recommend some.

CFL (13watt) probably wouldn't hurt, brighter the better, for me :). If you are super picky like jtr (and I'll assume you're not, and fine with the 'horrid' yellow/orange cast of light incans produce ;) ) you might want to get a daylight/full-spectrum CFL, there are a few of that kind that are dimmable IIRC. If it's dimmable, then having option to adjust brightness levels is always a plus- go for a 100w equiv. flood replacement if you can find it.

You can do a Google search or wait for jtr to reply :).
 

Clocker

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Hmmmm! Looks like they have more dimmable bulbs at lightbulbs direct than before!
 

udaman

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Not necessarily true. These spiral CFLs are totally enclosed to create flood lamps and I have not had one fail on me yet. I have about 15 of them in my basement and they get used a lot and for long periods of time. They're in recessed light fixtures, too.

http://www.lightbulbsdirect.com/page/001/PROD/Reflectors/1R402335

Again, define 'recessed', if it is a totally enclosed fixture, heat buildup at the base will KILL them dead fast, have had it happen *dozens* of times. Go look at the packaging CFL spiral bulbs come in if you don't believe me. Recessed with air space around the floodlamp bulb, base mounted at an angle, allows heat to escape, won't happen with an totally enclosed fixture. unless it's 13w or less, they will die prematurely.

http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/(olimit55a3fspnysbytnjejj)/ProductDetails.aspx?SKU=3238052


http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/(olimit55a3fspnysbytnjejj)/ProductDetails.aspx?SKU=3992252

Another thing timwit did not mention is size of incan, was it R30 or R40. Halogen floodlamps come in even smaller sizes, I can't recall off hand what those standardized bulb sizes are. Another bit of incompatibility is that many of these CFL have longer overall length and are not *exact* replacements size/length wise for the same incan floodlamp/bulb, check your diamentions carefully to make sure it's the same...if that matters for your application.
 

udaman

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Best spectral output is of course a modified incan :p (what will jtr say :/)...not all "daylight" sources are created equally...read link below.

http://www.solux.net/cgi-bin/tlistore/infopages/comparison.html
The FDA Enforcement Report issued a "Health Fraud Notice", stating claims for full-spectrum lamps were a "gross deception of the consumer". A recent publication by the NLPIP, the National Lighting Product Information Program, provides more information on the subject.

This is what I mean by recessed (put 15w or higher flood lamp CFL into those and I guarantee all cheaply made, common replacement CFL flood lamps will fail before achieving rated lifespan)

https://www.solux.net/cgi-bin/tlistore/recessed.html

try these search terms:

full spectrum dimmable fluorescent flood lamp

But wait for jtr, I'm sure he'll try to sell you on all the benefits of the LED version compared to CFL (while trivializing the objectionable issues that some people have with LEDs). But in the end it's all subjective. If timwit doesn't mind, the added expense and being locked into a long-term light source of certain spectral output, then go for the LED's.
 

Clocker

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Again, define 'recessed', if it is a totally enclosed fixture, heat buildup at the base will KILL them dead fast, have had it happen *dozens* of times.

Dozens of times? Then I guess you are either greatly exaggerating or just a slow learner.
 

Bozo

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I saw some dimable CFLs in Home Depot the other day. I don't remember them being encased in a flood lamp though.
You can buy covers for most recessed lighting cans. Check a well stocked lighting store and then buy online.

Uda, if you are losing "dozens" of bulbs, then the fixtures were not installed correctly or you installing the wrong bulbs.

Bozo :joker:
 

time

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Timwhit, if they're 45W, I'm guessing they're halogen GU10?

Here's an example of a drop-in replacement - note how expensive it is:

http://www.megamanbulbs.co.uk/acatalog/info_GU1011DIMWW_1.html

Megaman Dimmerable range

11W is a match for 45W incandescent unless you're talking about high-efficiency versions. However, CFL 'spot' lamps have a much wider beam than some halogens, so they're not suitable for highlights, just general lighting.

CFL GU10 can produce a 60 degree beam when coupled with a reflector in the fitting, but this does make the fitting larger. I'm a huge fan of these and would probably have them everywhere if I didn't mind holes in the ceiling.
 

timwhit

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Time, I think they are just standard incandescent, not halogen or anything.

I believe this is similar to the bulb being used.

Uda, out of the 30 fixtures, only 2 in the bathroom are covered, the rest are open. So, I don't think heat will really be a problem.

I found these two, which look they would work, but I don't really want to spend $300 replacing light bulbs. (I want to build a HTPC more).
Westpointe 15W R30 Dim Compact Bulb
Global Consumer Products #38

Is there anything out there that's cheaper and would meet my needs?
 

jtr1962

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Tim, if you get fairly low wattage CFLs (i.e. 13 or 14 watt which is equivalent to 60 watt incandescent), then it shouldn't be a problem in your open fixtures. Home Depot has a great line of n:vision CFLs. I have a pair of 14 watt ones operating in a totally enclosed fixture with no problems. It says in the FAQ that bulbs under 23 watts can be used in totally enclosed fixtures. They are $8 for a 4 pack, and are available in soft white (2700K), bright white (3500K), and daylight (5500K). The daylight ones are not noticeably blue like 6500K daylight often is. The downside is that these are NOT dimmable, and may not work properly on a circuit with a lamp dimmer even with the dimmer fully on (only way is to buy a few to test). They do have a line of candelabra base bulbs (with large base adaptor) which are dimmable. Downside of these is cost (~$6 each IIRC), only available in soft white, and only in low wattages. They really aren't a suitable replacement.

The bottom line is if you can give up the dimmability, then low cost CFL replacements exist (you may need to change your dimmer switches to standard ones). If you want dimmability, then the costs exceed $10 a lamp usually. For example, these are very nice, but at $14.95 each, ouch!

A good compromise might be to decide which areas you must have dimming, and which ones you can live without it. Just get rid of the dimming switches in the areas you can live without dimming, and use the $2 n:vision bulbs from Home Depot. Perhaps if you only need to buy a handful of dimmable lamps then your expenses can be kept in line.

LED is another option, but too many screw-in replacements are made with craptastic 5mm LEDs which will be dim as heck after a few thousand hours. You need to buy something with power LEDs like Crees or Luxeons. However, you're talking usually upwards of $50 a lamp, and not all are dimmable. Once LED takes off for home lighting, you'll undoubtedly see the cost of these drop dramatically. I also suspect that dimmability will be more commonplace with LED bulbs. It's technically much easier to design an LED for dimmability than a CFL.

So my advice for now is to get by without dimming for as many lamps as you can. If you can live with the power usage, heat, color (although that's subjective ;) ), and short life of the incans for a few more years you'll undoubtedly have a much wider range of attractive LED options. Remember that right now CRI is the next big thing being worked on with LEDs. Current ones are somewhat lacking although I've found Cree is the best. Their cool whites are in the low 80s, similar to commodity CFLs but not full spectrum. Soon we should see LEDs with CRI in the mid 90s (but at the expense of perhaps 25% efficiency). And of course efficiency will continue to increase, albeit more slowly than in years past ( Osram just hit 136 lm/W at 350 mA in the lab )
 

timwhit

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JTR, thanks for the detailed post. I think there are currently 4 switches with dimmers, but I can't remember how many total bulbs that is. I would like to have a dimmer in the living room, bedroom where we sleep, and maybe dining room. That's probably about 12-16 bulbs, but I will need to count. I think I will replace all the bulbs that aren't on dimmers with those Home Despot $2 bulbs now, and then when I can get something for ~$5-6 or less that is dimmable I will replace the rest.

The two fixtures that are completely covered are in the master bath and go out after being on for about 10 minutes, then they turn back on intermittently. I'm almost certain it's because of a heat cutoff circuit. How do you think the 13 watt CFLs will do in that environment?
 

Bozo

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I beleive that most dimmers made in the last 10 years are electronic. At least with these you will be saving electric when dimming.

Bozo :joker:
 

jtr1962

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The two fixtures that are completely covered are in the master bath and go out after being on for about 10 minutes, then they turn back on intermittently. I'm almost certain it's because of a heat cutoff circuit. How do you think the 13 watt CFLs will do in that environment?
That might be a timer of some sort. Either way, so long as the circuit doesn't use an electronic switch then a CFL should be OK. If you hear a click right before the lamps go off then it's using a mechanical relay and all is well. It it's totally silent then it might be using a triac. This may or may not be OK. If you put the bulb in and it starts smelling funny or the base gets very hot then it's obviously incompatible.

You can probably easily bypass the cutoff circuit anyway so at to get CFLs to work in case it is an electronic switch.
 

timwhit

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That might be a timer of some sort. Either way, so long as the circuit doesn't use an electronic switch then a CFL should be OK. If you hear a click right before the lamps go off then it's using a mechanical relay and all is well. It it's totally silent then it might be using a triac. This may or may not be OK. If you put the bulb in and it starts smelling funny or the base gets very hot then it's obviously incompatible.

You can probably easily bypass the cutoff circuit anyway so at to get CFLs to work in case it is an electronic switch.

I hear a click right before it goes off. So, this should mean that it's a mechanical switch and CFLs should be fine.
 

udaman

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That might be a timer of some sort. Either way, so long as the circuit doesn't use an electronic switch then a CFL should be OK. If you hear a click right before the lamps go off then it's using a mechanical relay and all is well. It it's totally silent then it might be using a triac. This may or may not be OK. If you put the bulb in and it starts smelling funny or the base gets very hot then it's obviously incompatible.

You can probably easily bypass the cutoff circuit anyway so at to get CFLs to work in case it is an electronic switch.

Uh oh jtr, you might want to reconsider that advice, could be a lawsuit in waiting (yeah, you could say just like you know who of my miss innocent/playing naive damsel neighbor "I have no money"), but people file lawsuits, even when you don't have much money they can take from you, any asset not protected by bankruptcy is a target...how do I know? :)

I hear a click right before it goes off. So, this should mean that it's a mechanical switch and CFLs should be fine.

Umm, suggest to avoid liability concerns here, you contact someone in the lighting industry.

We went over this in the LED thread, I thought???

I just tried to send an email via form submission to Neptun, but their server isn't connecting, lol. Will probably have to call them.

Both Neptun (pdf file) and this site are claiming even the spiral CFL's can be used in a totally enclosed fixture---because of patented amalgum, lol (great explanation for the science behind that!). I'll bet it depends on just how much heat buildup inside the enclosure there is will be a determining factor as to whether the lamp/bulb makes it anywhere near to rated life in such an enclosure.

Wonder if the Neptun produce is manufactured in China by the same factory making these below:

http://www.dimmablecfls.com/

Our Compact Fluorescents use Amalgam rather than Liquid Mercury. Our Compact Fluorescent's use amalgam for two very important reasons:
1) This allows all of our Compact Fluorescent's to be used in totally enclosed fixtures.
2) The use of amalgam eliminates the environmental concern regarding disposal of Compact Fluorescent's. The mercury used in the lamps is entirely contained inside the almalgam alloy and does not escape when the lamp is destroyed or disposed of. This makes the lamp safer to handle than conventional Compact Fluorescents.

I'm going to give this one a try :D

http://www.e3living.com/24-watt-dimmable-daylight-5000k-100-watt-replacement

Neptun compact fluorescents use Amalgam rather than Liquid Mercury. Neptun CFL's use amalgam for two very important reasons.
1) This allows all Neptun CFL's to be used in totally enclosed fixtures and
2) The use of amalgam eliminates the environmental concern regarding disposal of CFL's. The mercury used in the lamps is entirely contained inside the almalgam alloy and does not escape when the lamp is destroyed or disposed of.

http://www.neptunlight.com/about.html

I should note, the Feit 30w spiral CFL I just tossed from a totally enclosed fixture, only had light browning/discoloration, and no visible melting around the two tubes/and almost no darkening of the tubes at that junction, going into the ballast section- so maybe it had a EOL protection circuit in it?

Wow, those Cree powered 7w LED flood lamps sure are inexpensive...only $204 each!

http://www.e3living.com/7-watt-par3...ht-5000k-60-degree-beam-compare-75-watt-flood

LED (Light Emitting Diode) is the world's most efficient light source. Now you can take advantage of the latest electric light source technology of semiconductor.
Compare to Compact Fluorescents:

  • NO Mercury Vapor
  • NO Gases
  • NO Ballast and starter
  • LAST 50,000 hours (5-6 times longer than CFLs)
  • CONSUME less than 50% of the same electricity as CFLs
  • LOW heat generation
  • LOW maintenance cost
Hi Power! DIMMABLE! Fully encapsulated PAR30 7W Medium base. 7 CREE LED's make this LED light powerful. Daylight 5000K model. (Compare to a 75 watt flood). CREE is a technology leader in the LED market. Also available in Soft White
Click Here for FAQ's about LED's!

When I can afford luxuries like 1950's aged puerh tea cakes @$40 a cup, I'll stock up on those LED replacements for 100w bulbs (though if I don't mention it, jtr will; there is a new high power multidie LED from Cree that gets you into ~60-75w incan territory, that should become available in quantity next year, that won't cost you and arm and a leg) :D

http://www.houdeasianart.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=38&products_id=759
 

Clocker

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Time, I think they are just standard incandescent, not halogen or anything.

I believe this is similar to the bulb being used.

Uda, out of the 30 fixtures, only 2 in the bathroom are covered, the rest are open. So, I don't think heat will really be a problem.

I found these two, which look they would work, but I don't really want to spend $300 replacing light bulbs. (I want to build a HTPC more).
Westpointe 15W R30 Dim Compact Bulb
Global Consumer Products #38

Is there anything out there that's cheaper and would meet my needs?

4 bulbs for $20 at Walmart
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=6537501

WHOOPS SORRY IT PROBABLY ISN'T DIMMABLE.
 

timwhit

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I bought a bunch of BR30 14W CFLs (65W equiv.) at Home Despot for $3/each. They seem to work pretty well. I installed them in the bathroom where I was experiencing problems and the lights no longer go off after a few minutes. So, I'm convinced it was a heat problem. The previous owners had 100W incandescent bulbs in there. I'm also amazed that the previous owners didn't have a single CFL installed.
 

timwhit

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What I've noticed about these n:vision bulbs is they take what seems like forever to warm up. It's a good minute at least before they are fully bright. Pretty annoying when I want to see something quickly. I guess I will have to try another brand next. Too bad I bought 24 of them, maybe I can return the 6 2 packs that aren't opened. Anyone know of a BR30 CFL floodlight that is ~$3 and is more "instant" on?
 

time

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Osram and GE CFLs are miles ahead of anything else (based on longevity/reliability tests as well as efficiency), and I think you'll find the color rendition is better than the cheapies as well. They'll also reach at least 75% brightness within a second of switching on.

AFAIK, all fluorescent lights take at least a minute to reach full brightness.

My downlights are very slow, taking about three minutes or more. We don't mind this at all, and I believe this helps them meet their 600,000 starts / 15,000 hours rating.

The downlights are Megaman, BTW.
 
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timwhit

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The GE and Osram are significantly more expensive than the n:vision at this point. I guess I will just have to learn to deal with it until something better comes down in price or LED finally hits mainstream.

If I could get 75% brightness within a second I would be perfectly happy. But, this is more like 2% brightness within a second and then about 1% more brightness per second after that. I can barely tell the lights are on for the first 30 seconds. I've used a bunch of CFLs before, but these are by far the slowest to warm up.
 

Clocker

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I've noticed that especially with the enclosed reflector style CFLs (like BR30/40). Maybe they use different materials inside that style to deal with higher temperatures but they take longer to warm up...
 

jtr1962

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Yes, the downlight type CFLs usually use a mercury amalgam to better deal with the temperatures. It's also better for fixtures with frequent starting. The downside is the long warmup time. The 4 pack of 14 watt CFLs I had recommended has no such problem. They come to about 75% brightness pretty much instantly. LEDs of course will solve all these issues, but we have to wait a year or two for prices to come out of the stratosphere.
 

timwhit

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I only saw 2 packs of 14 watt n:vision R30 bulbs at Home Depot. Were you referring to another brand?
 

jtr1962

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I only saw 2 packs of 14 watt n:vision R30 bulbs at Home Depot. Were you referring to another brand?
No, I was referring to their 4-packs of standard 14 watt spirals. Our local Home Depot usually has them. They would work just fine in a downlight also although you might lose some lumens compared to a CFL with a reflector. They look like this:

161-167.jpg
 

jtr1962

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One interesting difference between the regular and downlight type CFLs besides the longer starting time is the lumens. The 14 watt warm white downlights are 640 lumens. The regular 14 watt soft whites are 900 lumens. The losses are undoubtedly due to the reflector and the enclosure but it can be argued that the standard lamps might lose just as much in the upward facing direction.

Yes, I understand the concern about the spirals looking a bit strange although it's not something which would bother me personally (and if it did I'd probably retrofit a diffuser right over the downlight opening). This is one of those situations where CFLs aren't an ideal solution. Irrespective of the long warm up time, are you at least satisfied with the light quality? If nothing else, these save big time on electricity for both lighting and A/C.

The search is on now for something dimmable and inexpensive for your remaining lights with dimmers. If I come across something, I'll let you know.
 

timwhit

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After they have fully warmed up I think they are bright enough and the light quality meets my needs. I will continue to use them because I want to save money on electricity. I will be switching out two of the dimmers that are currently in use, so that I can scrap 6 more incandescent flood lights and 3 regular sized bulbs. One problem I encountered when I tried to replace the incandescent regular sized bulbs in the fixture in the dining room is that the CFLs were slightly longer and stick making the light fixture look ridiculous. Are there smaller sized CFLs or ones that look like regular bulbs that you know about?
 

jtr1962

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What wattage were you using? The regular 14 watt ones are actually smaller than an incandescent lamp in many cases. I think Home Depot also carries these. They look like a regular bulb. The downside is that they're only available in up to 14 watts, and likely use the same slow-starting amalgam as the CFL downlights.
 

timwhit

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I think they are 60 watt bulbs. I don't care that these start that slow, they won't be used all that often.
 

sechs

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I received a 10% off coupon for Home Despot, so I got a couple of the n:vision floods for the new place, which is filled with cans. Annoying to say the least; but, with the discount, I basically got them tax free.

I'm a bit miffed that "bright white" isn't much more than "not as yellow." They didn't have (and, as far as I can tell, don't make) the larger floods in "daylight" (which really appears to be cool white, to me), so I ended up with two of the "bright white" PAR38s for the kitchen. I'll throw in one our regular 6500K CFLs into the third can to balance it out; the ones that we have in now do look a little funny in th 8inch fixtures, but it's not as if anybody looks straight at the light anyway.

Don't know if this will work for everyone, but if you're willing to part with your personal information, the Home Despot will give you a 10% off coupon:
http://homedepotmoving.com/extra
 

sechs

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I received a 10% off coupon for Home Despot, so I got a couple of the n:vision floods for the new place, which is filled with cans. Annoying to say the least; but, with the discount, I basically got them tax free.

I'm a bit miffed that "bright white" isn't much more than "not as yellow." They didn't have (and, as far as I can tell, don't make) the larger floods in "daylight" (which really appears to be cool white, to me), so I ended up with two of the "bright white" PAR38s for the kitchen. I'll throw in one our regular 6500K CFLs into the third can to balance it out; the ones that we have in now do look a little funny in th 8inch fixtures, but it's not as if anybody looks straight at the light anyway.

Don't know if this will work for everyone, but if you're willing to part with your personal information, the Home Despot will give you a 10% off coupon:
http://homedepotmoving.com/extra
 

timwhit

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That would have come in handy when I spent $96 there a couple weeks ago. Too late now I guess.
 

sechs

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One caveat with the discount coupon that I received is that I can't return the items individually. I have to return the entire ticket for any money back.

Since I doubt that they'd take the lamps back after I opened the blister packs anyway, it's not much of a barrier for me.
 
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