TVs and things

Handruin

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#1
The other day my Samsung plasma FPT5084 decided it had enough. It is suffering from what seems to be a very common click of death. The red indicator light is on to show it is getting power and when the power button is pressed, it clicks, waits, then clicks again without the screen never coming on. It will continue to repeat this process for a long time with it occasionally turning on, but now it seems it won't no matter how long I wait.

So...to Google I went and I've seen various threads, blogs, etc about bulging capacitors causing this problem (among other issues). Yup, my TV has several (4) bulged capacitors inside on the control boards. I took the back off and located 4 of them that are easily bulged of which one is possibly leaking. I called around for repairs and it seems $90 is the minimum visit fee then it will be parts and labor.

Now I'm happy enough to attempt replacing the capacitors but even then there is no guarantee this will fix the issues. I'm hesitant to put $300-$400 of repairs into the TV given it is 7 years old now. It also suffers from the green sparkle issue though it's not as bad as some I've seen online. What have other people done in cases like this? I hate to dump a 50" TV into the trash but at the same time $300-$400 is a decent amount to spend on a 7 year old TV. For the small cost and time I'll try replacing the caps first. That might be $20 and a couple hours.
 

Stereodude

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#2
You're talking to the wrong person. I'll talk you into spending a LOT on a new TV if you're not careful. :p

I'm in the market for a new TV myself. I'm looking to get an image quality upgrade from my almost 10 year old read projection CRT.
 

Stereodude

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#3
By the way, if you like plasmas the time to buy is near. Panasonic is already out of the business leaving only Samsung with a high end plasma and they're not coming out with any new high end models for 2014 just carryover. The F8500 is a 2013 model. I've auditioned it at several stores, but I just can't convince myself that it's the right TV for me. I always see something in the image that bothers me.
 

Handruin

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#4
You're talking to the wrong person. I'll talk you into spending a LOT on a new TV if you're not careful. :p

I'm in the market for a new TV myself. I'm looking to get an image quality upgrade from my almost 10 year old read projection CRT.
I want to have that discussion also. :) I was out looking at the Samsung U8550 55" and Sony X850a 55". Both looked incredible at 4K. I've only just begun looking. I originally went to look at the Samsung UN55F8000 but got sidetracked by 4K.
 

Handruin

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#5
By the way, if you like plasmas the time to buy is near. Panasonic is already out of the business leaving only Samsung with a high end plasma and they're not coming out with any new high end models for 2014 just carryover. The F8500 is a 2013 model. I've auditioned it at several stores, but I just can't convince myself that it's the right TV for me. I always see something in the image that bothers me.
I'm not stuck on plasma tvs. I like certain things about them but I don't just want a tv because it's plasma. I was hoping oled would have been more available in mass market than it is now (which is pretty non-existent). The Samsung UN55F8000 seemed like it made those who like plasmas happy which is why I wanted to check it out.
 

jtr1962

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#6
Try replacing the caps first. That may very well fix the problem. Too bad I'm not local to you or I could replace them for you.

BTW, I know exactly how you feel about dumping the TV in the trash for what is most likely a repairable power supply issue. I hate to part with things I know can be fixed. I even hate it when others throw away stuff which might be serviceable (hence my collection of old PCs and a 32" Samsung 720P TV which I have not yet been able to fix).
 

jtr1962

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#7
By the way, if you like plasmas the time to buy is near. Panasonic is already out of the business leaving only Samsung with a high end plasma and they're not coming out with any new high end models for 2014 just carryover. The F8500 is a 2013 model. I've auditioned it at several stores, but I just can't convince myself that it's the right TV for me. I always see something in the image that bothers me.
If I were you I might wait a bit until OLED becomes more affordable. I've seen OLED in person. It's no comparison to anything else but it's still too pricey for my tastes.

I want to have that discussion also. :) I was out looking at the Samsung U8550 55" and Sony X850a 55". Both looked incredible at 4K. I've only just begun looking. I originally went to look at the Samsung UN55F8000 but got sidetracked by 4K.
I'll echo what I said to SD, but with the caveat of waiting for 4K OLED. I've seen OLED, and I've seen 4K monitors/TVs. Put them together and you have a winner. Moreover, OLED seems poised to drop in price faster for the small size monitors I might be interested in. Anything much above 24" won't fit on my desk, but I view my monitor at about 14" so the pixels are quite noticeable. 4K will take care of that problem. OLED will take care of the issues with LCD screens in general.

Anyway, assuming you can fix your TV, I would nurse it along until OLED (and hopefully 4K) becomes mass market. I don't think that should be more than a few years.
 

Stereodude

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#8
I want to have that discussion also. :) I was out looking at the Samsung U8550 55" and Sony X850a 55". Both looked incredible at 4K. I've only just begun looking. I originally went to look at the Samsung UN55F8000 but got sidetracked by 4K.
I'm looking for something larger, like 65-70". Nothing I can buy right now is good enough IMHO. Edge lighting is for the birds. I want a TV with a direct LED backlight with local area dimming. There are a few sets coming out this year that have potential. Vizio is moving to almost all full array backlights with local dimming for 2014. Even on their low end sets. Of course they don't have enough dimming zones.

E series: 1080p up to 16 zones
M series: 1080p up to 32 zones
P series: UHD up to 64 zones
Reference series: UHD 384 zones

Sony, Panasonic, and Toshiba also have full array local dimming sets coming out soon. The Sony and Panasonic are UHD flagship models (read $$$$). Toshiba has a UHD flagship and a 1080p set.
 

CougTek

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#9
If I were you I might wait a bit until OLED becomes more affordable.
I thought OLED had problems with color intensity diminishing quickly and that no solution had been found yet to improve their lifespan. I might confuse that problem with another technology though.
 

Handruin

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#10
Try replacing the caps first. That may very well fix the problem. Too bad I'm not local to you or I could replace them for you.

BTW, I know exactly how you feel about dumping the TV in the trash for what is most likely a repairable power supply issue. I hate to part with things I know can be fixed. I even hate it when others throw away stuff which might be serviceable (hence my collection of old PCs and a 32" Samsung 720P TV which I have not yet been able to fix).

I'll take a look at the work involved and if it seems out of my league. Maybe I can work something out with you by shipping the control board and paying you for your time and parts if I'm not able to make the repair?

I took a look at my pictures again and it looks like three bad capacitors, not four. Here is what I found:

Red arrows are where the power plug is connected and routes to the board. The yellow arrows are the bulging capacitors.
back_overview.jpg

Here is one of the bulged capacitors.
one_bad_cap.jpg

Here are the other two.
two_bad_caps.jpg
 

Stereodude

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#11
I thought there was some class action lawsuits on Samsung TVs related to bad capacitors. I believe the settlement times have expired, but I read Samsung was still fixing them anyway. Yours doesn't seem to be an effected model though.
 

Handruin

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#12
I'm looking for something larger, like 65-70". Nothing I can buy right now is good enough IMHO. Edge lighting is for the birds. I want a TV with a direct LED backlight with local area dimming. There are a few sets coming out this year that have potential. Vizio is moving to almost all full array backlights with local dimming for 2014. Even on their low end sets. Of course they don't have enough dimming zones.

E series: 1080p up to 16 zones
M series: 1080p up to 32 zones
P series: UHD up to 64 zones
Reference series: UHD 384 zones

Sony, Panasonic, and Toshiba also have full array local dimming sets coming out soon. The Sony and Panasonic are UHD flagship models (read $$$$). Toshiba has a UHD flagship and a 1080p set.
I was asking the guy at BestBuy today about the majority of the sets being edge lighting and he said it had something to do with a lawsuit for patent which is why most are that way. I don't know how true that is. I don't know much about the Vizio line of TVs. Are they offering comparable quality TVs with the other major brands? I looked up the P-Series that was announced and if they turn out to be decent the pricing is more attractive than the current 4K TVs I looked at today.


50-inch P502ui-B1, $1,000.
55-inch P552ui-B2, $1,400.
60-inch P602ui-B3, $1,800.
65-inch P652ui-B2, $2,200.
70-inch P702ui-B3, $2,600.
 

jtr1962

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#13
I'll take a look at the work involved and if it seems out of my league. Maybe I can work something out with you by shipping the control board and paying you for your time and parts if I'm not able to make the repair?
I'll be onboard for that if you don't feel confident making the repair yourself.

I took a look at my pictures again and it looks like three bad capacitors, not four. Here is what I found:

Red arrows are where the power plug is connected and routes to the board. The yellow arrows are the bulging capacitors.
View attachment 776

Here is one of the bulged capacitors.
View attachment 777

Here are the other two.
View attachment 778
Yeah, it looks like the usual bad cap issue we've all seen on older motherboards. I would probably replace them with solid polymer caps just so the problem never recurs, assuming of course I can find the same value solid cap.
 

jtr1962

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#14
I thought OLED had problems with color intensity diminishing quickly and that no solution had been found yet to improve their lifespan. I might confuse that problem with another technology though.
The problem still exists but it's becoming less of a problem as we're learning about OLED degradation mechanisms. I suspect by the time OLED becomes mainstream the problem will be completely solved. Even now, OLED lifetimes are ~50,000 hours. This is good enough for a commercial product.
 

Stereodude

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#15
I was asking the guy at BestBuy today about the majority of the sets being edge lighting and he said it had something to do with a lawsuit for patent which is why most are that way. I don't know how true that is. I don't know much about the Vizio line of TVs. Are they offering comparable quality TVs with the other major brands? I looked up the P-Series that was announced and if they turn out to be decent the pricing is more attractive than the current 4K TVs I looked at today.


50-inch P502ui-B1, $1,000.
55-inch P552ui-B2, $1,400.
60-inch P602ui-B3, $1,800.
65-inch P652ui-B2, $2,200.
70-inch P702ui-B3, $2,600.
No M's or P's have shipped yet, so it is hard to say. My gut tells me that 64 zones still may not be enough based on previous sets of years past. It all depends how aggressive they try to be with it. Too aggressive and you get blooming.

There are rumors that Sharp sued Samsung years ago over full array local dimming tech, which is why they don't make them any more. However, that doesn't seem to be true since the patents referenced in the suit have nothing to do with backlighting. Samsung managed to get everyone chasing "thin" instead of picture quality. Like somehow an extra inch of depth is going to matter...
 

Stereodude

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#16
I thought OLED had problems with color intensity diminishing quickly and that no solution had been found yet to improve their lifespan. I might confuse that problem with another technology though.
They do. LG uses White OLEDs with a color filter. Samsung uses RGB OLEDs. Samsung seems to have put their OLED TV on hold while LG seems to be trying to make hay with their TVs. Too bad they're really expensive and curved. They also don't seem quite ready for primetime based on owner feedback. Mostly dead pixel issues, like lots of them and growing numbers of them over time. Also some burn in issues.
 

Stereodude

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#17
The Full Array Local Dimming TVs of interest to me are:

Sony XBR-65X950B - $8000 MSRP (shipping May/June)
Vizio P652ui-B2 - $2200 MSRP (shipping fall)
Vizio P702ui-B3 - $2600 MSRP (shipping fall)
Vizio 65-inch Reference Series - ? MSRP (possible vaporware / end of the year)
Toshiba 65L9400U - $4500 MSRP (shipping June/July)
Panasonic TC-65AX900U - ? MSRP (shipping fall)

The Vizio P's have 64 zones, the Reference series has 384 zones, and the Panasonic has 128 zones. Sony's not talking numbers of zones. Toshiba's not talking numbers of zones, but pretty solidly based speculation is >300. The 2011 Sharp Elite Full Array Local Dimming TVs, which are considered to be the ultimate local dimming TVs to date, had 240 zones in a 60" and 336 in a 70".

All of those TV's have VA LCD panels except for the Panasonic which is an IPS panel. This means it will have inferior native black performance, but better viewing angles. This may also exacerbate blooming from the local dimming.
 
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#18
I don't mean to derail, but a client will have a need for a 4k 80"+ in a few months. I don't need model recommendations or price, but do you see similar evolution in the tech of these larger units?
 

Stereodude

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#19
I don't mean to derail, but a client will have a need for a 4k 80"+ in a few months. I don't need model recommendations or price, but do you see similar evolution in the tech of these larger units?
What do you mean? I move to full array backlights with local area dimming, a move to UHD, or something else? And how big is 80"+ 84" or are you talking 110"
 
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#20
The house is still under construction. I have the plans around here somewhere, but the home theater room isn't conducive to projection systems. 80" would be the minimum size, 110" probably ideal if the price works (under $15k?). I don't need to make a decision on what TV yet, but the framing is almost done, and I want to be confident that I will be using a TV before they finish up.

If a TV with 80"+, UHD, full array backlights with local area dimming isn't available in my price range I'll need to talk to the framers about a soffit or something and additional conduit.
 

Handruin

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#21
The Full Array Local Dimming TVs of interest to me are:

Sony XBR-65X950B - $8000 MSRP (shipping May/June)
Vizio P652ui-B2 - $2200 MSRP (shipping fall)
Vizio P702ui-B3 - $2600 MSRP (shipping fall)
Vizio 65-inch Reference Series - ? MSRP (possible vaporware / end of the year)
Toshiba 65L9400U - $4500 MSRP (shipping June/July)
Panasonic TC-65AX900U - ? MSRP (shipping fall)

The Vizio P's have 64 zones, the Reference series has 384 zones, and the Panasonic has 128 zones. Sony's not talking numbers of zones. Toshiba's not talking numbers of zones, but pretty solidly based speculation is >300. The 2011 Sharp Elite Full Array Local Dimming TVs, which are considered to be the ultimate local dimming TVs to date, had 240 zones in a 60" and 336 in a 70".

All of those TV's have VA LCD panels except for the Panasonic which is an IPS panel. This means it will have inferior native black performance, but better viewing angles. This may also exacerbate blooming from the local dimming.
Several of those are higher than I'd want to consider right now for a new TV if I decide to go that direction. I was pretty impressed with the Samsung UN55HU8550 4K TV when I saw it.

What is there for 4K content right now?
 

Stereodude

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#23
Several of those are higher than I'd want to consider right now for a new TV if I decide to go that direction. I was pretty impressed with the Samsung UN55HU8550 4K TV when I saw it.

What is there for 4K content right now?
Close to nothing. Sony has some sort of 4k player that apparently isnt ready for primetime and Netflix is streaming House of Cards in 4k. 4k blu-ray is like 18 months out (best case).

I don't care about 4k. I want the best picture quality I can get. For better or worse all the premium picture quality features are on UHD sets. That said Sony is all sorts of crazy if they think that set is going to actually sell at $8k. I'm hoping the Toshiba performs well. Value Electronics is going to test the Sony and Toshiba as part of their 2014 shoot-out.
 

Handruin

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#25
I'll be onboard for that if you don't feel confident making the repair yourself.


Yeah, it looks like the usual bad cap issue we've all seen on older motherboards. I would probably replace them with solid polymer caps just so the problem never recurs, assuming of course I can find the same value solid cap.
I pulled the power supply module out of the back of my TV tonight. The Capacitors are 2200µF 10V 105 degrees C made by Samwha. Amazon has some from a different company which looks like this. On the other side of the label, one says V3A, and the other says V4A.

I took pictures of the back side of the power supply board. It looks pretty straight forward for melting the points and pulling out the capacitor but do you see anything concerning or have any recommendations before I attempt this? I put red arrows on the points where I will have to solder in the capacitors.

one_cap_backside.jpg

two_caps_backside.jpg
 

Stereodude

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#27
The house is still under construction. I have the plans around here somewhere, but the home theater room isn't conducive to projection systems. 80" would be the minimum size, 110" probably ideal if the price works (under $15k?). I don't need to make a decision on what TV yet, but the framing is almost done, and I want to be confident that I will be using a TV before they finish up.

If a TV with 80"+, UHD, full array backlights with local area dimming isn't available in my price range I'll need to talk to the framers about a soffit or something and additional conduit.
You need to add another 0 to your budget if you want a 110" UHD Samsung. There are some options at 84-85". They're not FALD in you budget though. For example the XBR-85X950B is $25k.
 

Handruin

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#29
Close to nothing. Sony has some sort of 4k player that apparently isnt ready for primetime and Netflix is streaming House of Cards in 4k. 4k blu-ray is like 18 months out (best case).

I don't care about 4k. I want the best picture quality I can get. For better or worse all the premium picture quality features are on UHD sets. That said Sony is all sorts of crazy if they think that set is going to actually sell at $8k. I'm hoping the Toshiba performs well. Value Electronics is going to test the Sony and Toshiba as part of their 2014 shoot-out.
If I can't get my plasma fixed with repairing the caps, maybe I'll just get something inexpensive to use for a little while until UHD TVs come down in price some more and more content is available. I'm genuinely interested in the higher resolution and content. I found the demo model at BestBuy to look like someone hung a painting in front of the TV.
 

CougTek

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#30
You need to add another 0 to your budget if you want a 110" UHD Samsung. There are some options at 84-85". They're not FALD in you budget though. For example the XBR-85X950B is $25k.
Wow, he wold not even get enough to buy the 110" by selling his baby girl on the black market. That's freaking expensive.
 
Last edited:

jtr1962

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#31
I pulled the power supply module out of the back of my TV tonight. The Capacitors are 2200µF 10V 105 degrees C made by Samwha. Amazon has some from a different company which looks like this. On the other side of the label, one says V3A, and the other says V4A.

I took pictures of the back side of the power supply board. It looks pretty straight forward for melting the points and pulling out the capacitor but do you see anything concerning or have any recommendations before I attempt this? I put red arrows on the points where I will have to solder in the capacitors.

View attachment 779

View attachment 780
I'm not seeing any problems. Just remember the caps are attached to heavy traces so you'll need a soldering iron with a decent amount of watts (i.e. something with only 5 or 10 watts won't work but most decent ones with 40 to 75 watts should do fine). Mark the polarity before you remove them so you install the new ones correctly. You might have a little trouble clearing the solder out of the holes after you remove the caps. Solder braid or a solder sucker should work fine for that. Honestly, as repair jobs go this isn't a difficult one at all.
 

jtr1962

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#32
I pulled the power supply module out of the back of my TV tonight. The Capacitors are 2200µF 10V 105 degrees C made by Samwha. Amazon has some from a different company which looks like this. On the other side of the label, one says V3A, and the other says V4A.

I took pictures of the back side of the power supply board. It looks pretty straight forward for melting the points and pulling out the capacitor but do you see anything concerning or have any recommendations before I attempt this? I put red arrows on the points where I will have to solder in the capacitors.

View attachment 779

View attachment 780
I'm not seeing any problems. Just remember the caps are attached to heavy traces so you'll need a soldering iron with a decent amount of watts (i.e. something with only 5 or 10 watts won't work but most decent ones with 40 to 75 watts should do fine). Mark the polarity of the old caps before you remove them so you install the new ones correctly. You might have a little trouble clearing the solder out of the holes after you remove the caps. Solder braid or a solder sucker should work fine for that. Honestly, as repair jobs go this isn't a difficult one at all.
 

Handruin

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#35
Have you priced out capacitors from someplace like Mouser?

I just looked and it's very close to Amazon. From amazon it will be $7.32 for 3 of them or $7.00 from Mouser with 3-7 day shipping. I'll probably get an extra one in case I screw one up.
 

Handruin

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#36
I'm not seeing any problems. Just remember the caps are attached to heavy traces so you'll need a soldering iron with a decent amount of watts (i.e. something with only 5 or 10 watts won't work but most decent ones with 40 to 75 watts should do fine). Mark the polarity of the old caps before you remove them so you install the new ones correctly. You might have a little trouble clearing the solder out of the holes after you remove the caps. Solder braid or a solder sucker should work fine for that. Honestly, as repair jobs go this isn't a difficult one at all.
Thanks for the tips and feedback jtr. What brand/type of solder should I use for this kind of repair with respect to tin/lead and rosin/flux, etc? I'm going to dig out the soldering iron I have to see what kind of wattage it has and whatever kind of solder I might have with it. I had this Stahl Tools SSVT Variable Temperature Soldering Station on my bookmark list for some Arduino projects I was looking to get into but hadn't yet. Its max wattage is at the minimum you recommend. I could pick up one of these desoldering pumps to clean out the old solder or some of the soldering braid like you mentioned. This video looks pretty straight forward on cleaning out the old solder with the braid.

Are the replacement capacitors I linked to look ok in terms of specs? You mentioned the polymer ones but I haven't been able to find an appropriate one to replace these.
 

Stereodude

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#37
If I can't get my plasma fixed with repairing the caps, maybe I'll just get something inexpensive to use for a little while until UHD TVs come down in price some more and more content is available. I'm genuinely interested in the higher resolution and content. I found the demo model at BestBuy to look like someone hung a painting in front of the TV.
I have a fairly new (for me) philosophy on buying things. Mainly that I'm willing to spend money to get exactly what I want. Sometimes you have to pay money to get nice things. I have a bonus (at work) coming in about 3 weeks and it should comfortably pay for a TV.
 
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#38
I have a fairly new (for me) philosophy on buying things. Mainly that I'm willing to spend money to get exactly what I want. Sometimes you have to pay money to get nice things. I have a bonus (at work) coming in about 3 weeks and it should comfortably pay for a TV.
Totally agree. Fewer, better things.
 

Handruin

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#39
I have a fairly new (for me) philosophy on buying things. Mainly that I'm willing to spend money to get exactly what I want. Sometimes you have to pay money to get nice things. I have a bonus (at work) coming in about 3 weeks and it should comfortably pay for a TV.
That's great and I'm happy for you. You also must value watching a TV more than I do which makes it a more enjoyable purchase for yourself. Spending additional money for a nicer TV makes more sense for you. When I bought my current TV I did pay a decent amount for it and now 7 years later it's on a second failure/repair (first was under warranty thankfully). I'm not too keen on spending that kind of money again to go through the same crap.
 

Handruin

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#40
Totally agree. Fewer, better things.
I'm fine with that but in this case I tried that 7 years ago and it hasn't entirely worked out. I get that stuff happens but I feel like TVs just don't last like they used to like with CRTs. Until this happened I didn't even have my eye on the horizon for the current TV technology.
 
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