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Fushigi

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If doing code development, a dual is helpful when debugging. The debugger will get affinity for one thread while the prog being debugged gets the other. Or compile in one thread while continuing to develop in the other. Or a multi-threaded compile if doing a multi-module build.

A secondary advantage is, of course, better Folding performance/cubic centimeter..
 

Will Rickards

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mubs said:
Check out the X2 3800+. The Inquirer says "TECH REPORT benchmarks the AMD Athlon 64 3800+ processor and still could not believe how much value for money that little baby offers. With 512KB and 2GHz per core, it overclocks easily to 2.4GHz and almost matches a 4800+ for around 2/5th of the price. Single core are history. At less than $360, the reviewer can't find a fault to it."

The TechReport article is here.

Thank you, this brings dual core back into my budget.
This is definitely my processor.
 

time

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My God, are you still here?!!!

Can't you just bugger off while we have endless debate over the usefulness of multiple CPU cores?

:mrgrn:
 

Santilli

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Hi Will

Hope you went over the picCOLOR test.

"Scores in picCOLOR, by the way, are indexed against a single-processor Pentium III 1GHz system, so that a score of 4.14 works out to 4.14 times the performance of the reference machine."

Gives you a pretty good idea, in this task at least, of the relative improvement you should see in a program compared to your machine, and, it shows the relative difference in speed.

I'm curious which of the tests most resembles the work you do on your machine?

"The Tech Report






Conclusions
Well, we asked for a cheaper Athlon 64 X2, and AMD delivered. As expected, the Athlon 64 X2 3800+ performs quite well in our test suite, which is heavy on multithreaded applications and 64-bit binaries—the types of programs that an X2 purchased today should spend much of its life running. In fact, in multithreaded applications, the X2 beats out AMD's single-core flagship, the Athlon 64 FX-57, more often than not. There is a tradeoff involved in the X2 3800+, because its 2GHz clock speed is relatively low, and as a result, its performance in single-threaded applications is decent, but not stellar. Still, the X2 3800+ plays today's single-threaded games better than any form of Pentium 4 or D.

The Pentium D 820 is still a good value at $241, but I suspect most enthusiasts will think the extra hundred bucks or so is worth it to step up to the X2 3800+. AMD's cheapest dual-core processor generally outruns the Pentium D 840, and in some cases, the Pentium Extreme Edition 840, as well. I'd still like to see AMD compete at the $250 range with a dual-core offering, but I suppose that will come with time. The X2 3800+ is a step in that direction.

In fact, now that the entry point for dual-core Athlon 64 processors has dropped to $354, I am almost ready to stop recommending single-core processors for anything but budget PCs. Unless you absolutely cannot afford it, I'd suggest picking a dual-core CPU for your next system. Even for gamers, there's little point in passing on a second CPU core just to get a somewhat higher clock speed, in my view. The X2 3800+ is more than passable for today's games, and multithreaded game engines and graphics drivers are already on the horizon. For anything but games, having a second CPU around, even if it's just to handle antivirus and antispyware chores, makes perfect sense.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to step out of the way. AMD says these chips should be available for purchase right now. If most X2 3800+ chips overclock like our review sample did, then PC enthusiasts are going to stampede toward this thing en masse."

He has a point. Keep in mind this processor is about the same price as a 2.8 ghz Xeon used to be, and it really starts looking good.

I would strongly suggest the swiftech cooler, since that would give you a better chance of hitting the overclock point he's talking about.

"The Tech Report






"Overclocking
With very little effort and even less drama, I was able to get the X2 3800+ running stable at 2.4GHz by setting the HyperTransport clock to 240MHz. The Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe mobo on our test system was giving the X2 3800+ about 1.31V by default. I turned that up to 1.3375V, backed the HyperTransport multiplier down to 3X, and the X2 3800+ seemed quite happy.

Now, that's a sweet overclock all by itself, but hitting 2.4GHz has the added benefit of bringing everything into line. When the memory clock is set to the proper divider for DDR333 operation and the HyperTransport clock is raised to 240MHz, the memory actually runs at 400MHz even. Lock down the PCI and PCI-E bus speeds using the motherboard's BIOS, and you're running virtually everything but the CPU and HyperTransport link at stock speeds. I was able to leave the RAM timings at 2-2-2-5, nice and tight. This is the sort of overclock I could live with for everyday use. "

I'm NOT an over clocking fan, but that setup would make me think twice.


s
 

Santilli

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So:

The processor means a Gigabyte Nvidia 4 based motherboard, SLI might not be a bad idea,

expensive ram, so you can overclock, and, I wonder if two gigs of ram might not be a better idea then one, since you might need it for multiple applications,

a high quality power supply, probably the Seasonic 500W would be good,

and a hard drive setup that can feed the setup.

I forgot, you need a new PCI-E video card, either the Matrox P650, or, have a serious look at an Nvidia card, since you might want to go dual cards, and SLI later on, donw the road, and, I suspect Nvidia cards are going to be better at it then ATI cards.

You might have a real good chance of getting Windows XP 64 to work on this setup, provided you don't use any legacy stuff on the computer, requiring old drivers.

Swiftech heatsink, for overclocking, or, silent running.

Welcome to the bleeding edge. It's not going to be real cheap, but,
given the price on the X2 3800, it looks like an excellent value, and, should provide upgrade possibilities on the future.

Given a choice, I would have been much happier with this setup, then trying to cheap it, and going with the 3000+.


s
 

Will Rickards

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So looking at the SCSI to see if it fits with the budget.
But the controllers + cable are more than the drive.
Any suggestions here where I can get an inexpensive one?
I see the Fujitsu MAU3036NP 36GB 15K U320 68Pin drive is $176 from zipzoomfly. But the U320 controler+cables I found LSI20320RKIT is $214 at newegg.

I don't think I should use an U320 card since I'll be putting it in a 32bit/33Mhz PCI slot. Even U160 is probably more than PCI can deliver. So any suggestions?
 

Santilli

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What he said^

LSI card is a steal, and it works just fine, plus it's SCSI 320, which means you can take it with you. I think I got mine from

www.ewiz.com

Supermicro shipped their SCA box with a red cable, about 20-30 bucks from your local frys, along with a simple scsi terminator, also from Frys, about 20 dollars.

Computer giant is pretty good for this stuff, and the cables look like this:

http://www.computergiants.com/items/one_item.asp?part=61043&ref=cables_site

Keep in mind these guys are a pretty good place to shop.

Same LSI as Fushigi suggested, but 85. instead of 101.

http://www.computergiants.com/items/one_item.asp?part=68289&ref=disc_controller_site

Finally, prior to any of this:

CALL www.hypermicro.com

The guy usually has drives he doesn't have listed, and, he might have the
same type cables cheap.


Here's a 320 controller for 103:

https://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?name=LSI-U320

Get the 320 card, so if you want to move the stuff, you aren't limited to 130 mb/sec.

Look for a refurb 15k Cheetah, SCA 80 pin, and use a converter. As a general rule, SCA drives are where you find really great deals in SCSI, since they are used by so many businesses.

Eventually, when you buy your case, you might want to make sure you can go to a Supermicro SCA box:

http://www.supermicro.com/products/accessories/mobilerack/CSE-M35S.cfm


You can then use SCSI SCA 80 pin drives, and, you can find refurbs for close to the gig/dollar value of ATA or SATA, and, the slowest will be twice, or more, as fast as any of the above drives, since they have to be

1 inch drives to fit in the box.

For the future, LSI makes a single channel Raid card:

for around 350 dollars, that will allow you to raid any number of drives in the SCA box, and boot from them.

https://www.computergiants.com/items/one_item.asp?part=71672&cat=33&subsubcat=2076

Hope this helps...


s
 

Fushigi

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Santilli said:
Look for a refurb 15k Cheetah, SCA 80 pin, and use a converter. As a general rule, SCA drives are where you find really great deals in SCSI, since they are used by so many businesses.
At some point, I should have a boatload (60+) of 18GB 15K drives, both IBM and Seagate, available. They'll be coming out of an AS/400 we're upgrading (going to 140GB 15K drives on the new model). They've been running 24x7 since installation, but would certainly be good when shipped. And since I'd be getting them for free, I would sell 'em cheap.

Dunno when, though, as business needs (long story) are preventing the upgrade from happening as quickly as it should.

Good link to the cheaper SCSI cards, Greg. I simply went to lsilogic.com, found a minimal U160 card, and looked for it at pricewatch. If computergiants doesn't list there, they should as they'd be the lowest price.
 

time

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Will Rickards said:
Actually I'm not even sure I need another hard drive but the configuration thing didn't have an option for no hard drive. I have a maxtor 120GB PATA that is serving me just fine now.
...
I'm concerned about sound with this setup. My computer sits in my living room on all the time.

How did you get from there to considering 15k drives? :eek:
 

Santilli

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I can't hear much from any of my drives, in particular, the P160 case does a great job of keeping things quiet, with rubber mounting, etc.

Server is a quiet hum....

Actually, I have 5 Cheetah X 15 18 gigs, I think they are generation 15.2 or
3, and they are quite decent as boot drives. I don't need all of em, but, they have been run for awhile, and one of them doesn't like being in a boot array.

Haven't figured out which one yet. They are 68 pin drives. Been sitting in a box for about 8 months, but I can get them out, hook them up, format and test them.

60 bucks each, and you pay shipping and boxes.

150 for three. That would give you a boot, a scratch disk for Photoshop,
and a page file disk. Finally, 200 for 4, if you want a backup drive no warranty, other then they will be tested, and work, when I ship them.

s
 

Fushigi

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Pradeep said:
Are those 80 pin drives Fushigi? What generation Seagate?
More than likely, but I'm not 100% sure as they are installed in a special kitting that's used in the AS/400 disk cages. As to what gen, I haven't seen the naked drives yet so I don't know the exact model numbers. All I know is right konw they emulate (via the kitting) IBM 6618s. But that doesn't mean anything in PC-land.
 

Santilli

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Fushigi said:
Santilli said:
Look for a refurb 15k Cheetah, SCA 80 pin, and use a converter. As a general rule, SCA drives are where you find really great deals in SCSI, since they are used by so many businesses.
At some point, I should have a boatload (60+) of 18GB 15K drives, both IBM and Seagate, available. They'll be coming out of an AS/400 we're upgrading (going to 140GB 15K drives on the new model). They've been running 24x7 since installation, but would certainly be good when shipped. And since I'd be getting them for free, I would sell 'em cheap.

Dunno when, though, as business needs (long story) are preventing the upgrade from happening as quickly as it should.

Good link to the cheaper SCSI cards, Greg. I simply went to lsilogic.com, found a minimal U160 card, and looked for it at pricewatch. If computergiants doesn't list there, they should as they'd be the lowest price.

Computer giants does list, but not everything. They often have very good prices, or do something like you pay for a refurb, and get a new 36k instead...

s
 

Will Rickards

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time said:
Will Rickards said:
Actually I'm not even sure I need another hard drive but the configuration thing didn't have an option for no hard drive. I have a maxtor 120GB PATA that is serving me just fine now.
...
I'm concerned about sound with this setup. My computer sits in my living room on all the time.

How did you get from there to considering 15k drives? :eek:

I've always wanted SCSI and idle noise is what I'm concerned with.
And Rad and Santilli recommend a scsi boot drive. I gave up on using a non-stock heatsink. I'll just get the retail version of the 3800+. And anyway, how can I call myself a true storage freak without trying scsi at least once in my life?
 

Will Rickards

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Santilli said:
60 bucks each, and you pay shipping and boxes.

Thanks, but I think I want to get a new one (full warranty - newest generation) and at least 36GB. I have a new build priced out in excel and will post it once I do some more research on cases/power supplies. I'm not 100% on spending that much for a case yet.
 

Santilli

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Will Rickards said:
Santilli said:
60 bucks each, and you pay shipping and boxes.

Thanks, but I think I want to get a new one (full warranty - newest generation) and at least 36GB. I have a new build priced out in excel and will post it once I do some more research on cases/power supplies. I'm not 100% on spending that much for a case yet.

Depends on your needs, but looking forward, that's a very good choice.

Between Computer Giants and

www.hypermicro.com

you should be able to get either a 36 gig Cheetah, or whatever, for a good price.

In the long run, scsi drives are, well, let's just say all mine are still working, even when raid cards die...

s


http://www.computergiants.com/items/show_items.asp?catid=5&subcatid=956&subsubcatid=600
 

Will Rickards

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Here is my current build spreadsheet.
If the 2001FP hits around 350 I'll be right in line with my budget.

Code:
New Computer Components
Type         Part Number    Description                 Price Ship  Total   Vendor
CPU          ADA3800BVBOX   AMD Athlon 64 x2 3800+     382.00  0.00  382.00 mwave
Motherboard  GAK8NULTRA9    GIGABYTE GA-K8N ULTRA-9    124.00  8.77  132.77 mwave
Memory       ?              Crucial 1GB DDR400 512MBx2  93.00  0.00   93.00 mwave
Video Card   GV-RX30128DE   Gigabyte ATI X300 128MB     66.00  2.50   68.50 newegg
DVD-RW Drive DW1640 BG OEM  BENQ DW1640                 42.99  4.00   46.99 newegg
Case         P160           Antec P160                 105.00 15.99  120.99 newegg
Power Supply S12-80         Seasonic 380W               76.99  6.99   83.98 newegg
Software     ?              Nero                        10.00  0.00   10.00
Hard Drive   MAU3036NP      Fujitsu 36GB 15K U320 68   176.00  0.00  176.00 zipzoomfly
Controller   LSIU160        SCSI U160 Controller PCI    85.00  7.95   92.95 giant
Cables       SCS-LVD320-48T 68PIN SCSI Cable w/ Term    55.00  0.00   55.00 giant
Monitor      2001FP         Dell 20.1" LCD Monitor     595.46  0.00  595.46 dell
                                                      1811.44 46.20 1857.64
 

Santilli

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Will:
I was incorrect on the Nvidia 3 not supporting the X2 processors, and, you are right that the bios upgrades for GAK8NULTRA9 will support X2's.

Excellent news.
You should be able to find a cable and terminator, two or three position for 20 bucks, and a terminator for the same. Giant is a bit high at 55, but I think that's for a 5 position cable, so its still a good price.


I'm unconvinced you are making a good decision with the Dell LCD monitor.
At 600 dollars, I don't think it's going to be better then two, 19" Sony's that you could probably find used.

Also, for text, and in general, a Matrox P650 would be far superior to the ATI card. The P650 also does a fantastic graphics job on games. It allows you to us BILLIONS of colors on CRT's and, this makes a very noticeable difference in text quality, even on the best ATI cards.

Where you are going to find Nero for 10 bucks maybe a problem. Check

www.costco.com

They have been bundling Nero with a Maddog NEC 3520 USB external, for around 110 dollars. I've got one sitting on top of the Antec 160 case, and it gave me a great external DVD burner, and, a pretty much free copy of the Nero suite.

I suspect it maybe awhile before the X2 3800+ is avaliable in large enough quantites for the price to drop a bit, but, the overall setup is perhaps the best I've scene in a value setup for duals.

Might be nice to have two NEC burners. You can rip with one, and either watch, or burn with the other...

s
 

Handruin

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That 2001FP can be had for ~$400-$450 now. I bought mine a few months ago for $460, so I know it's possible. I see it all the time on bensbargains. Give it a few days to a week and you'll likely see it again on sale. Last time it was on sale was July 29th for $442.
 

Will Rickards

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BenQ DW1640 Retail w/ nero software for 60.50. Not in stock right now but I can wait for that as I have a dvd drive to use for now.

I'll look for a shorter cable with terminator, thanks.

Can you point to any reviews or writeups regarding this billions of colors. Can't any video card do that? I'm trying to get rid of my CRT I have very limited space right now so the LCD will help a lot with clearing up desk space in the corner desk I have in the small living room. And I know the LCD can't reproduce all the colors like a CRT. I think I'm willing to make that sacrifice. The matrox just seems like it demands a price premium for no reason.

I've watched for deals on the 2001FP for a while. I was actually going to buy one back in June around my birthday but the money had to be reallocated for something or other. Lately it is rarely on sale but it's cousin the 2005FPW is almost always on sale. But I don't think I want a wide screen monitor. I will watch for it to dip in the low $400 or even $450 and then I might grab it.
 

Will Rickards

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Santilli said:
I was incorrect on the Nvidia 3 not supporting the X2 processors, and, you are right that the bios upgrades for GAK8NULTRA9 will support X2's.
That board is nforce 4 ultra chipset non sli version. I may go for the sli version. I'm still debating on whether I want the extra PCI slot (3 vs 2) or not.
 

Santilli

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http://www.matrox.com/mga/archive_review/jul2003/pseries_globetechnology.cfm

Search the forum for Matrox P650, and between Splash, and myself, you will have enough information, and discussion, for a good decision.

http://storageforum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3730&highlight=graphics+card+universe

http://storageforum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2987&highlight=video+card


http://www.nvnews.net/reviews/matrox_parhelia/page_3.shtml

Hope these help.

There really isn't anything that compares to Parhelia core, and software, for 2D.

s
 

time

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If you use an LCD, DVI should render graphics quality problems irrelevant. I don't know where Greg got the idea that a Matrox P650 is fast - the X300 Will selected is at least twice as speedy.


According to Storage Review, the Fujitsu MAU (albeit 4-platter version) is 6dB louder and 8.5C hotter than a Raptor.

A 15,000 RPM spindle speed, 5.7 millisecond access times, and four platters do not add up to a quiet, low-power drive.
...
This is a drive intended for a well-cooled, well-ventilated server room rather than a cramped case with poor airflow.

Good luck!
 

Buck

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:bibber: THESE 4400+ x2 CPUs ARE TAKING FOREVER!
None of the online retailers have them, and my distributors are talking August 31st before they arrive! :bibber:
 

Bookmage

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so much information....
brain overload...

I've been looking at a new system for a while, but the timing doesn't seem right... I will have to take all this into consideration... Especially the SCSI stuff, since I was thinking of upgrading/expanding my TB video servers...

So many toys... so little money... I really need to start this job search...
Keep the info coming... I need something to replace my dead Socket A system... or just go cheap and find mATX Socket A mobo for cheap...

interesting to note it took a couple hours to get to the bottom of the thread, hit post reply, and find another half dozen responses pop up...
 

Will Rickards

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Just ordered everything except the monitor.
Some slight changes to last listed config so what was ordered is listed below.
Code:
New Computer Components
Type         Part Number    Description                 Price Ship  Total   Vendor
CPU          ADA3800BVBOX   AMD Athlon 64 x2 3800+     382.00  0.00  382.00 mwave
Motherboard  GAK8NULTRA9    GIGABYTE GA-K8N ULTRA-SLI  133.75  8.77  142.52 mwave
Memory       ?              Crucial 1GB DDR400 512MBx2  93.00  0.00   93.00 mwave
Video Card   GV-RX30128DE   Gigabyte ATI X300 128MB     66.00  2.50   68.50 newegg
DVD-RW Drive DW1640         BENQ DW1640                 47.61  6.84   54.45 saveateagle
Case         P160           Antec P160                  95.00 16.97  111.97 mwave
Power Supply TPII-430       Antec TruePower II 430W     79.00  4.16   83.16 mwave
Hard Drive   MAU3036NP      Fujitsu 36GB 15K U320 68   176.00  0.00  176.00 zipzoomfly
Controller   LSIU160        SCSI U160 Controller PCI    85.00  7.95   92.95 giant
Cables       SCS-LVD320-29T 68PIN SCSI Cable w/ Term    45.00  0.00   45.00 giant
                                                      1202.36 47.19 1249.55
 

Handruin

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Buck said:
:bibber: THESE 4400+ x2 CPUs ARE TAKING FOREVER!
None of the online retailers have them, and my distributors are talking August 31st before they arrive! :bibber:

I've been watching newegg for the same chip, but the price is still way too high. I'll probably do the same as Will, and buy the x2 3800+. Big price difference...$405 vs $669. Newegg has the x2 4400+ in stock...not sure if that's what you meant by no retailers having them... :?:
 

Santilli

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Will Rickards said:
Santilli said:
There really isn't anything that compares to Parhelia core, and software, for 2D.

ZipZoomFly : $223
Directron : $214

I think the $66 ATI X300 128MB card will be fine. That is just too expensive.

Fair enough. I bought the refurbed P650 from newegg for 150 dollars, and it's worked great, since.

Anyone know if the 400 series is a clear as the P550 or P650?

S
 

Santilli

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Will Rickards said:
Just ordered everything except the monitor.
Some slight changes to last listed config so what was ordered is listed below.
Code:
New Computer Components
Type         Part Number    Description                 Price Ship  Total   Vendor
CPU          ADA3800BVBOX   AMD Athlon 64 x2 3800+     382.00  0.00  382.00 mwave
Motherboard  GAK8NULTRA9    GIGABYTE GA-K8N ULTRA-SLI  133.75  8.77  142.52 mwave
Memory       ?              Crucial 1GB DDR400 512MBx2  93.00  0.00   93.00 mwave
Video Card   GV-RX30128DE   Gigabyte ATI X300 128MB     66.00  2.50   68.50 newegg
DVD-RW Drive DW1640         BENQ DW1640                 47.61  6.84   54.45 saveateagle
Case         P160           Antec P160                  95.00 16.97  111.97 mwave
Power Supply TPII-430       Antec TruePower II 430W     79.00  4.16   83.16 mwave
Hard Drive   MAU3036NP      Fujitsu 36GB 15K U320 68   176.00  0.00  176.00 zipzoomfly
Controller   LSIU160        SCSI U160 Controller PCI    85.00  7.95   92.95 giant
Cables       SCS-LVD320-29T 68PIN SCSI Cable w/ Term    45.00  0.00   45.00 giant
                                                      1202.36 47.19 1249.55

ENJOY!
Looks great...

s
 

Platform

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Santilli said:
Anyone know if the 400 series is a clear as the P550 or P650?

Yes, but at lower refresh rates and spatial resolutions (e.g. -- 1152x864 @ 85 Hz). The DACs in the G400, G450, and G550 have a bandwidth of 360 MHz. The DACs in the P650 have a bandwidth of 400 MHz.

By the way, that's a G550. The G450 and G550 are pretty close in every "useable" way. What I mean by useable is that the G550 basically introduced the idiotic HeadCasting thingamajig capability -- which nobody to my knowledge in the real world ever used. Otherwise, the basic useable performance increased only slightly above that of the G450, along with some other inconsequential tweaks here and there that I can't immediately recall. On the other hand, the GPU architectural differences between the G550 and the P650 are quite extensive.

By the way, all the Matrox PCI, AGP, and PCI Express GPUs use native designs -- no external bridge chips used to get product out the door in a hurry. Each card model has the I/O bus interface integrated with the GPU core on-chip. At this point in time, Matrox is still fabricating its GPUs using 130 nm process. Sooner or later, Matrox will jump to 90 nm (or maybe smaller) like ATI and nVidia. I would guess maybe late-2006 or whenever it becomes economical. At that point, you will be able to play 3-D games at today's nVidia / ATI frame rates. :lol:
 

Santilli

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In that case, if WR wants to try the text quality we are talking about, he can easily, and very cheaply, pick up a 400 series Matrox card and plug it in.

Like 20 bucks type cheap.




G
 

Will Rickards

Storage Is My Life
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So wouldn't you know that the charges got flagged as fraud by my credit card company and they called me to verify I made the orders. But they neglected to tell me I had to have each company rerun the order. When I called to see what was going on they said that the newegg purchase was high on their fraud list. I had tried to remove newegg as the vendor from every item but the video card wasn't at mwave or zipzoomfly.

I think at this point that everything is about to be shipped.
 

Computer Generated Baby

Learning Storage Performance
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Santilli said:
In that case, if WR wants to try the text quality we are talking about, he can easily, and very cheaply, pick up a 400 series Matrox card and plug it in.

Like 20 bucks type cheap.
  • Originally Posted: I've got about $2000 to use and I want to get a nice LCD monitor with that too...

I wouldn't bother using an analogue G400/G450 on a digital (LCD) monitor -- definitely a step backwards -- unless one wants to buy a cheap-o LCD with analogue-only connectivity.

 
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