Kyoto Protocol

time

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Despite that CFLs are promoted in order to save energy, some of you guys (and you're not alone) are just making your homes brighter!

A funny thought struck me: are proposals to counter global warming even a talking point in the US? We know that the US and Australia are pretty much the only two countries that didn't ratify the Kyoto Protocol. Australia's highly likely to reverse that soon, finally leaving the US isolated.

No offence, but how many here even know what I'm talking about? :)
 

ddrueding

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I know what it is, but don't know much about it. Something about carbon trading, and it being near useless because of all the "free" carbon credits being passed around. Also something about China getting a pass?
 

Handruin

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No offence, but how many here even know what I'm talking about? :)

I'll admit I know nothing about it. I watch very little TV, news, etc and I don't buy a news paper and rarely listen to the radio. I joke with people that I'm a perfect juror because I rarely know about the surrounding world. It wasn't until weeks after the last stamp price increase did I find out I mailed some bills with the wrong postage. I'll take the criticism on it, that's fine.
 

jtr1962

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I think once the Bush administration goes a Kyoto-like protocol is likely to be ratified in the US, regardless of which party goes to the White House. A fair number in Bush's own party are disgusted by his environmental stance. A big reason the first Kyoto protocal wasn't ratified was specifically because Third World nations wouldn't have to abide by it. The rationale was that doing so supposedly would impede their economic development.

Anyway, brighter lighting really isn't the big reason the US is the world's worst carbon emitter per capita. It's really auto use, which in turn was caused by the rapid spread of suburban sprawl following WWII. That topic in itself is something I could write a book on. Suffice it to say this was public policy at its worst. If we want to fix it, changing to more efficient lighting is but a small part. We'll need to change our lifestyle so as to avoid mechanized transportation, especially autos, as much as possible. More efficient and electric autos can only go so far, although electrics combined with nuclear power is one option. More railway use in lieu of flying would definitely help alot. Avoiding travel except when absolutely needed is another thing we should be looking at. Telecommuting and teleconferencing are not as widely used as they could be. Guess I could write another book on that topic as well. ;)

Fact is in the coming years we're either going to have to drastically change how we use and generate energy, or we're going to have to make some major sacrifices. Likely a little of both. I'm willing to cut my lumens by a third or half even if the guy down the street is willing to drive 5000 miles less each year.
 

udaman

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If time will do a search on Arnold the Govenator & Gore the tree hugger, he'll find a wealth of info, including their recent appearance at the United Nations (not sure time even knows what I'm talking about...sarcastic retort, :p).

Hmm, I'm sure jtr could write few books, but like Gore's books would end up doing nothing to solve the problems as *they* want to see it. Problem is they will never get people to live the way they want them to, that includes me! While in a utopia universe, everything is right there in an ordered an efficient way, just like affordable health care in the USA, which will not happen in our lifetime.

Besides being an LED zealot, well also know jtr is a train fanatic! (not offense, but you are ;) ). I will never take a train to China(but if it is cost effective, I'll risk a deadly accident riding a train once I get there by plane, to visit the vast distances between major cities or desired locations...say if I were to be there for the Olympics), nor a 30day *each* way freighter across the oceans, when it is far, far, far more practical to fly. I hate flying just as much as jtr (well, he won't go in one because...if man were meant to fly, he'd have wings---and if women were meant to spend 30days floating on the ocean, that is just as deep in deadly depth as the distance the planes fly above the oceans, without a care in the world to the time and ridiculous cost compared to flying...they'd be *mermaids*, lol), but high-speed trains, get serious. I don't want to hear about how the olds are lower that you die in a Maglev @300mph, than in a plane crash, @300mph, any crash is likely to be very deadly---and there will be crashes. Now if they can cause a nice ice age to start, get firm ice across from Siberia to Alaska, and I can get there for LESS than a $1,000 round trip air fair to Hong Kong, then I might be willing to go a ridiculously circuitous route to get to HK via train that takes 3 days instead of 16hrs from Los Angeles. Really, there is no practical solution for affordable transoceanic travel than by plane, end of agrument jtr, you can't win that one.

It would be great if people stopped driving, but in a free country, you can't stop it. Ride a train with a load of dim sum from 3 or 4 different restaurants I could only get to in a practical amount of 2hrs or so by driving---there are no dim sum restaurants on the westside of Los Angeles, my favorite that was good, which I frequented far more than the distant dim sum restaurants in the Chinese communites...closed 2 years ago :(, while taking the rail system if it were expanded 10 fold in Los Angeles would net me a loss of time probably to double that, when I could be back home eating and enjoying that food before it's time to sleep, assuming I could even carry that much dim sum (8 styro containers or more) in my hands on a crowed train/subway...get real! NOT practical. Too many instances where trains are simply NOT practical, and never will be. They are great for reducing where most of the car traffic is generated, going to and from work 5-days a week, and yes telecommunting is preferable and can reduce some of this problem.

But as usual, jtr is only looking at his USA, not globally, not how history will go down. Facts are that, China will surpass the USA in global emissive pollution in a few decades, facts are that India (yet another large country without much of the pollution generating capacity of the USA but with a growing economic population with the same desires for the mid-class life going on now in China) will pass China in population and undoubtedly pollution by 2050. Developed nations will soon be passed by fast growing 3rd world populations. It's a global problem, billions of dollars spent on railways is but only capable of a drop in the bucket as far as solutions as much as jtr dreams about that utopian railway society of his...ain't going to happen. The scope of the problem is too great and complex to be solved, even mitigated substantially by jtr's limited suggestions...sounds harsh-not trying to pick on jtr-I respect his opinions, they are well meaning---but I completely disagree with his conclusions, but it's also not based on other people's unrealistic optimism that throwing billions of dollars here and there without comprehending the needs of all people, other people that do not share your point of view of how to live, results in failure...politicians are great at this. There are far too many billion dollar projects that run tens of hundreds of times over budget (Boston, what's it called traffic project...you on the Eastcoast?) Any and all traffic systems of the future seem doomed to excessive cost overruns, kind of surprising when something does get completed, and by then twice a many cars (because twice as many people are being born) are there already to make things *worse*.

The single biggest problem, once again, is population growth and planning for that. All the wonderful pie-in-the-sky planning is useless without a solid projection of costs invovled with more people constantly adding stresses to all social systems---Emergeny Room care as local So.Cal. hospitals is at the breaking point and none of the policians are addressing this, the people doen't react, just like 9/11 terrorist attacks, until the tragedy occurs. Who planned in China for the world's greatest population migration of over 300 million people leaving rural areas of China for better job opportunities in ever more conjested cities and factory/industrial communities of the East Coast of China...planning? Uh huh.

There will a moritorium on car usage in Bejing during next summers Olympics, and lost of factories will need to be shut down for weeks to avoid pollution...but will that be enough? During the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics, the scare of massive traffic jams on the freeways resulted in the lightest freeway traffic for a 2 week period ever. Would not happen like that in 2008, there are easily twice as many cars & people using ever more conjested freeways...that with much more rail lines that jtr thinks will solve the transportation grid lock. He is sorrly wrong, there are just too many people outstripping the transporation systems ability to cope. Another doubling of population here in LA in just the next 2 decades. Trillions of dollars of rail systems would only reduce the INCREASES in congestion, not lower it in any way. The only address part of the problems, a small part of the problems, not the huge part jtr unrealistically believes that they do from his insular upbringing in NYC...it's a distorted view point, not encompassing/comprehending the *realities* of the rest of the world. Sorry, but the Bush Admn is going out, and their position on the Kyoto accord was correct for what they were saying. Only problem is that one or two term politicians don't ever put into place longer term goals, government mandates (Congress controls this for those who don't understand how it works in this country) that could be effective. I heard lots of talk about alternatives from the Bush Admn, that either will never work, or never get the support necessary to become reality. It is fine to criticise the Kyoto accords as being unwise in false attempts to work a problem unsuccessfully, but it's another to do something else outside of the Kyoto accords, if you don't believe they would work. They alternative plans haven't been put into place or promoted enough to make any alternative do anything better. Both are losers so far. Plan C anyone?

Uh oh, I think Merc's head is going to explode, don't read this Merc, bad for your health :D
 

Mercutio

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I think there's enough big business interests on the Democrat side (primarily from unions of supporting industries) that even the party with a shred of rational thought won't go for something like Kyoto unless someone finds a way to monetize the shit out of carbon trading *and* major industries are left in a position where nothing about their behavior or bottom line has to change.

The republicans are going to flat-out never accept anything like carbon trading. It is absolutely truth to say that a lot of the imbeciles on the right are opposed to the idea of curtaining energy use on the grounds that, any day now their savior on a stick is going to come and restore the Earth to paradise and until then, their god has told them that man has dominion over the earth. Among Presidential candidates, I'm fairly certain that Duncan Hunter, Mike Huckabee and Sam Brownback all believe that.

The only way that a carbon trading system will work is if a bunch of very wealthy people figure out that they can make even more money from working that system. Until that happens, energy use and climate change are basically non-starting issues in the USA.

Most Democratic candidates at least mention a green platform, but the US does not have a viable Green Party, and the Democratic base is built (at least, a decent bit) on labor, which is more concerned about keeping jobs and trade protectionism than green issues. Intellectuals in the party tend to be more concerned with big-picture civil liberties issues, and the urban poor with social issues. A major problem with the Democrats is really that it's hard to get them to agree on anything; any given democrat has a set of personal issues that might not match those of the party as a whole, which can result in a lot of mixed messages and wishy-washy sounding rhetoric. This is not befitting the American ideal of bold leadership and frankly it makes the poor excuses for human beings on the right seem better by comparison.

On the side of pure evil, the mainstream party members tend to be most strongly influenced by moral issues that stem from christian fundamentalism (the ideas of christian bigotry enforced by law, in the ideal); harsh treatment of criminals, gun rights and general deregulation of businesses are other platform issues. Higher up in the party, the moral issues that seem to characterize "core" voters are less important, but the overall picture of a republican is very pro-business and anti-taxation. At one time, the republican party was strongly in favor of fewer laws governing personal behavior and having a government that provides very few services and therefore spends very little money. Those people will largely claim to be "Libertarians" these days, although the actual Libertarian party in the US campaigns mostly as the "Legalize drugs and privatize all government services"-party, which I daresay most sensible people can recognize for the bad idea that it is.

In short, time, green politics really don't have a place in American politics.
 

Bozo

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Despite that CFLs are promoted in order to save energy, some of you guys (and you're not alone) are just making your homes brighter!

A funny thought struck me: are proposals to counter global warming even a talking point in the US? We know that the US and Australia are pretty much the only two countries that didn't ratify the Kyoto Protocol. Australia's highly likely to reverse that soon, finally leaving the US isolated.

No offence, but how many here even know what I'm talking about? :)

Nothing will happen here until the polititions find a way to get tax payers money into their bank accounts from it.

Bozo
 

time

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The CFL reference was just an attempt at a segue from the other thread. Lighting isn't a very significant contributor, but I thought it might be a useful example of US thinking.

Meanwhile, things are hotting up:

Act now or the planet gets it: Rice

(I borrowed the headline from a local newspaper's coverage of this Financial Times article)
 

LiamC

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My first reaction to hearing about that ad, was that environmental issues must be more important to the voters than either major political party in Aus gives credit. However, without knowing how many people contributed, I'm not sure that my first reaction holds water.
 

LiamC

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A guy I know—about six months ago—probably best characterised as a true ocker, self made man, was talking to me about selling his home in Port Macquarie (on the river) in the next few years, before rising see levels (or the clear threat of them) made the property worthless.
 

DrunkenBastard

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Certainly anything within 1m of current water levels is at serious risk within the next few decades. Can you imagine having to build a dyke wall to protect your waterside property?
 
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