Islam above all....

flagreen

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Islam teaches that a Muslims first loyalty is to his fellow Muslims. And that Allah's law supercedes secular law.

No doubt you've all seen the recent arrests of an Army Chaplain and two translators for spying activities at Guantanamo. Further investigations are under way of all translators at Guantanamo.

Is particular belief of Islam compatible with serivce in the U.S. Military? Or with holding politcal office in America? Or even with citizenship?
 

Mercutio

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At one point, the same thing was said about Catholics.

The bible and the talmud similarly teach that god's law supercede's man's. Depending on how strict you want to be that could mean everything up to believers not eating shellfish.
 

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flagreen said:
Is particular belief of Islam compatible with serivce in the U.S. Military? Or with holding politcal office in America? Or even with citizenship?
Sometimes Bill, you seem dangerously short-sighted, perspective-lacking and xenophobic.

Muslims are like every other people : they are composed both of nice folks and ass holes. U.S. too. And the ass holes within U.S. aren't all immigrants.

I'm not very pro-immigration, by the way. I often see it as a plague to our language and culture, especially when I walk in Montréal and ear no one speaking French. But refusing citizenship based on religion is, excuse me, a tad Bushy (moronic). I hope your government won't go that far, although "hope" and "government" don't fit very well into the same sentence when speaking about the U.S. gov.

Regarding Guantanamo, I'm not ready to swallow everything your officials declared on the spying accusations. I strongly suspect that the prisonners that are not considered as prisonners of war even though they been captured when U.S. claimed they were at war (against terrorism, but in fact more against the state of Afghanistan) are kept in unhuman conditions, far from the cameras and journalists where few can report about their mistreatments. While it's maybe possible that the Chaplain did spy, I'm far more likely to believe that he might just have disobey a few crude orders to diminish slightly the misery of the prisonners.

With the amount of crap that has been generously distributed by your current administration to medias during the last two years, everyone should be sceptical towards the U.S. army and intelligences (intelligence? what an oxymoron) official reports.
 

flagreen

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Let's narrow this discussion down a bit. Because as Mercutio points out not all muslims are fundamentalists. And as Cougtek points out I'm a narrow-minded guy any way. :(

There are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world today. Of these 165 million are fundamentalists (Islamists). This latter group are the ones who wish to see a restoration of the Caliphate.

From - http://www.freeman.org/m_online/oct01/pearlston.htm


(snip)...That ideology is Islamism, a fanatical fundamentalist revivalist movement seeking to establish a theocratic Islamic Nation over all Moslems, one nation at a time. The first was Iran in 1979, when an Islamic fundamentalist religious revolt toppled the pro-western Shah in reaction to his "White Revolution" which allowed women to vote and hold jobs, built large cities, and created a more secular society with Western freedoms, much as Kemal Attaturk had done in Turkey beginning in the 1920's. After the Shah, an Islamic Republic under the Ayatollah was created; he promptly called the US "The Great Satan", and Western-type freedoms disappeared. Shortly thereafter, mobs seized the US embassy and its staff, holding them hostage for two years. In 1996, Afghanistan followed a similar repressive path under the Taliban. The goal is to eventually unite all Muslim states into one Islamic Nation, ruled as an Islamic anti-democratic and totalitarian theocracy. This ideology finds expression through many organizations whose names have become all too familiar -- Islamic Jihad, Al-Quaeda, Hizbollah, Hamas, Moslem Brotherhood, Abu Sayyaf , Al-Gama'a Al-Islamiya -- and a host of others less well known but with similar objectives in every Moslem country. Their enemy is secular society, secular governments, and Western civilization, which they see as corruptive and destructive of Islamic values. They scorn "moderate" or secular Moslem governments such as Turkey and Egypt and even Saudi Arabia; there are active terrorist movements in all such countries seeking overthrow of the governments They are committed Moslems, praised in mosques across the world for their devotion to Islam and to the concept of the Khilafah, a term referring to restoration of the Caliphate abolished by Attaturk in 1924 after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and which has been defined as the total rulership of Muslims all over the world in a centralized unitary state that implements the Islamic Shariah (Koranic law) and carries Islam to all people as a global ideology.

These are the folks to watch out for. These are the one's whose loyalty to America should be carefully scrutinized. Many converts to Islam fall into this category unfortunately. And we have many converts here in America.

Please don't assume that I am advocating implementation of the ideas implied within the questions I began this thread with because I am not. It is a subject however which I feel bares looking into based on what we have seen in recent events.
 

blakerwry

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what about communists? should we trust communists? what about homosexuals, should we trust their loyalties?



I'm with Cougtek here, i think that each individual has their own ideas, believes, and integrity. They may share some beleifs or ideals with a group of others, but they should be treated and judged as an individual.
 

Mercutio

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Turkey is a truly secular Islamic state and has been for a little over 80 years. I'd like to put forth that if they can manage it than so can any other Islamic nation.

But as long as we're questioning the place of Islamic fundamentalists, why aren't we also questioning Jewish and Christian extremists we already have at home?

Are those people fit to govern or serve in our military? They have similarly extreme views, after all.

Of course it'd be unreasonable to round up and tag every hardcore Pentecostal or Baptist like we seem to have done with the Muslims in this country, and I'd argue we have more to fear from the guy who looks like a normative "American" who wants to overthrow all or some aspect of our present society, e.g. Matthew Hale (World Church of the Creator), the Montana Freemen (the site Bill linked to made me remember them, but doesn't appear to be affiliated) or even The Constitution Party.
See, it was a guy who fit that mold that did this little thing in Oklahoma...
 

flagreen

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Well I understand the reluctance here in this country to persecute any one particular religon or ideology. Yet whether one is a Catholic, Jew or Muslim one must honor the oath one takes when being being sworn into the armed forces. What do we do with those whose ideology is directly opposed to the ideas which are expressed in that oath? Should these people regardless of whether it is the Communist party, the Montana Freeman or Islam be allowed to serve in the U.S. military? I'm not so sure...

As for Islam here is a little more information on the Islamist movement;

Islamists support Shariah law, and wish to have it implemented in as many countries as possible; preferably throughout the entire world. A few Islamists may advocate such radical change via peaceful means, but most seem to advocate the change using violence. With the sword, the rifle, car bombs, grenades, poisons, hijacked planes, bacteria, nerve agents, and if possible nuclear weapons they mean to oppose democracy and secular government throughout the globe, destroy such systems, and establish a Caliphate (one-world Islamic government based on Shariah law, guided by a single supreme ruler, the Caliph). IslamistWatch.org is primarily concerned with the latter, the Islamists who believe it is incumbent on them to impose Shariah by force of arms. They believe using violence to spread their version of Islam is justified in the Quran and the Sunnah (the Sunnah is a collection of works that narrate the Prophet Muhammad's life). The Islamists who have written the texts, fatwas, and communiques featured on Islamistwatch.org are determined to fight jihad until religion is for Allah alone, and the infidels have been defeated, subjugated, or eliminated altogether.

To westerners this news sounds absurd. They can't believe that people would seriously wish to begin a 21st century crusade to spread a particular gospel by force. Even after the spectacular raids in the U.S. in September 2001 westerners want to believe that the whole business is about oil, or opposition to the political and economic hegemony of the western powers, or about the Zionist-Muslim conflict in Palestine/Israel. But for an Islamist those battles are subsumed and defined by something far more serious: a religious crusade.

From - http://www.islamistwatch.org/main.html

It does sound absurd! Just as absurd as the Montana Freeman or the KKK but this is what these folks desire. The difference is that there are 165 million of these Islamists in the world today.
 

blakerwry

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What do we do with those whose ideology is directly opposed to the ideas which are expressed in that oath? Should these people regardless of whether it is the Communist party, the Montana Freeman or Islam be allowed to serve in the U.S. military?

I know I'm not qualified to answer that question.

Maybe a better person would be someone in the military with experience commanding/training people whose ideas oppose the objectives of the military.
 

flagreen

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By the way just because there are "only" 165 million Islamists out of 1.2 billion Muslims, this does not mean that the remaining 1.035 billion are not supportive to one degree or another of the Islamist movement.

For example, the Pew Research Center conducted a Global Attitudes survey recently which included the citizens of all the major Muslim nations. What they found is quite interesting. Look at this;

OBL.jpg


From - http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=185

Note the numbers of those who trust Osama bin Laden (Mr. Islamist himself) to do the rght thing in world affairs. Now contrast those figures with this table from a USA Today & Gallop Poll which asked whether 9-11 was morally justifiable;

Do you believe these acts are/were totally justified or totally unjustified?

World Trade Center
...................Justified...... Unjustified
USA...................5%............88%
Iran...................8%............51%
Kuwait..............18%............26%
Lebanon............13%............62%
Pakistan............11%............40%
Turkey...............3%.............55%

The results of these polls would seem to be at odds with one and other but in reality they are not. The reason they are not is can be exaplained by looking at the results again from another question from the USA Today & Gallop survey which shows that a majority of Muslims do not believe that Osama bin Laden or any Arab group had anything to do with 9-11!

Do you believe groups of Arabs carried out the attacks against the USA on Sept. 11?

...............True.........Not true.........No opinion
USA..........90%.............7%.................—
Iran..........15%............59%................22%
Kuwait.......11%............89%................—
Lebanon.....42%............58%................—
Pakistan......4%.............86%...............10%
Turkey.......46%............43%...............11%

Note: Saudi Arabia and Jordan were not surveyed for the questions above.

The USA Today & Gallop poll can be cound here - http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002/03/04/poll-results-full.htm

I suspect the results seen in the data above is due to a number of factors. Distrust of America, the state controled Arab media, and partly due to the power of Muslim brotherhood.
 

flagreen

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blakerwry said:
What do we do with those whose ideology is directly opposed to the ideas which are expressed in that oath? Should these people regardless of whether it is the Communist party, the Montana Freeman or Islam be allowed to serve in the U.S. military?

I know I'm not qualified to answer that question.

Maybe a better person would be someone in the military with experience commanding/training people whose ideas oppose the objectives of the military.

For the record, here is the oath which must be sworn to;

An individual, except the President, elected or appointed to an office of honor or profit in the civil service or uniformed services, shall take the following oath:

''I, AB, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.''

This section does not affect other oaths required by law.

From - http://vikingphoenix.com/politics/Election2000/Issues2000/NationalSecurity/oath.htm
 
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