IPv6

[Prof.Wizard]

When are we gonna see the full, Internet-wide implementation of it?
Is there a roadmap?

 

[P5-133XL]

About the same time the US switches to metric or two years after the last IP address is allocated: Whichever comes first.

 

[EdwardK]

About the same time the US switches to metric or two years after the last IP address is allocated: Whichever comes first.

The US switching to metric: That would be a very long time, wouldn't it?

Cheers,
Edward

 

[Mercutio]

It was supposed to happen in 1980. Obviously, it didn't, and most Americans can't tell you whether a centimeter is bigger than a kilometer and whether either is bigger than a hogshead.

Metric measures are fine, except temperature.

Oh, yes, and just to amplify what Mark said: pretty much everything you buy network-wise supports IPv6. It's just going to be a matter of flipping a switch and seeing what breaks.
A LOT of stuff will break. It'll be a glorious time for those of in the consulting business.

 

[honold]

home equipment like cable/dsl routers almost categorically do not support ipv6. 'real' routers do, but tons of what the world is using doesn't. if it was as easy as 'start using it' we would have stopped most DoS attacks by 'starting to adhere to ftp://ftp.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2827.txt and ftp://ftp.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3013.txt '.

i think nat and ipv4 are going to be around for a long time, and the rest of the world will have to use ipv6 before we get pushed into switching.

 

[Mercutio]

I was referring to professional network hardware. When the time comes, someone will no-doubt make a $100 box to replace the IPv4 one that consumers have now.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

...two years after the last IP address is allocated:

Wouldn't this be too late?
I was hearing rumors that the switching may take place by the time Microsoft launches Windows Longhorn. Of course MS doesn't necessarily influence the Internet affairs but just to get a point in time.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

Metric measures are fine, except temperature.

What's wrong with Kelvin (Celsius)?

 

[P5-133XL]

...two years after the last IP address is allocated:

Wouldn't this be too late?
I was hearing rumors that the switching may take place by the time Microsoft launches Windows Longhorn. Of course MS doesn't necessarily influence the Internet affairs but just to get a point in time.

Yes, of course it will be too late: That is exactly my point. Unfortunately nothing important is ever done until it is too late. All you have to do is look at the world eco-systems or the world enviornment to realize that.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

There is one big difference P5... People deliberately sap the enviroment!

Exhausting the IPs before implementing the new standard, means businesses and persons which for a short time CANN'T be served, thus... revenues lost.
I would say that the IP thing is more like the Y2K bug. Businesses should be warned about the issues coming.

 

[Fushigi]

Truth is most companies still hog way more addresses than they need. And fail to utilize NATting to the fullest degree available to them. There is absolutely no reason why the average person or corporate desktop user needs a non-NATted address. Only servers, routers, and other networking equipment truly needs dedicated internet-known IPs. And even that can be NATted in some situations. Properly managed, IPV4 can last for years.

But who 'properly manages' anything nowadays...

It's just like the telcos hogging numbers in phone exchanges. It has caused the needless usage of so many area codes it's rediculous. The greater Chicago land area, with a popularion of less than 10 million, has the following area codes 312, 708, 630, 847, 815, 773, 872, 331, 464, 872, 224 according to Verizon. 11 area codes x 10 million numbers/area code, make it 9.5 million to eliminate unusable numbers within each area code = 104.5 million numbers. Now, I have a home phone, a cel phone, an office phone, and a private fax number, so that's 4. Say I also had a pager, that'd be 5. Say every human in the vicinity had the same, that'd still be less than 1/2 the available numbers. The office phone accounts for business lines and gives every worker from executives to factory line workers and bus boys their own work number; in the end it may balance out with those who have dedicated phone lines for internet access. The only conclusions are that the numbers are being wasted and/or the telcos are hogging the exchanges.

- Fushigi

 

[Mercutio]

NAT breaks a lot of RFCs. Things don't work the way they're supposed to when you're using NAT. It's better to have a real IP if possible.

 

[blakerwry]

I used to do some business for an ISP that had two types of cable modem services. On one service, they offered static IPs and a decent up/down rate for the standard $40-$60/month. On the other service they offered a NATed LAN IP that was DHCP. This service was offered cheaper and fulfilled most of the customers' needs.

This was the 1st time I have heard of such a thing... I think prof. Wiz said he had a setup similar to this in his country in the recent broadband poll he posted.

 

[Mercutio]

Metric measures are fine, except temperature.

What's wrong with Kelvin (Celsius)?

Temperatures aren't reported in sufficient gradiation. 27C would be a very warm room, but 25 C would be the chilly side of comfortable.
I'd much rather know that it's 80F or 75F.

It'd be different if Celsius air temps were regularly reported in 10ths of degrees. They aren't, and to me the more precise scale makes sense, since there can be big differences in comfort level over a spread of just a couple Celsius degrees.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

Temperatures aren't reported in sufficient gradiation. 27C would be a very warm room, but 25 C would be the chilly side of comfortable.
I'd much rather know that it's 80F or 75F.

It'd be different if Celsius air temps were regularly reported in 10ths of degrees. They aren't, and to me the more precise scale makes sense, since there can be big differences in comfort level over a spread of just a couple Celsius degrees.

Well you're right but still most people can't understand the difference between 80 and 78F, instead (sensible enough) they can if it changes from 27 to 25C, as you said. This is IMO a plus. For everyday life Celsius is perfect because of its perfect scaling.

Moreover, digital or quality analog thermometers DO measure in tenths. You can find them in the market, I mean.

 

[CougTek]

Temperatures aren't reported in sufficient gradiation. 27C would be a very warm room, but 25 C would be the chilly side of comfortable.
I'd much rather know that it's 80F or 75F.

You are way too sensitive. Temperature here outside often varies of 15C during the same day (in Summer) and as much as 25C within a 24 hours period in some Winter or early Spring days. So complaining about a scant two Celsius difference, I mean, give me a break. My sensitivity level is very well served by Celsius.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

Truth is most companies still hog way more addresses than they need. And fail to utilize NATting to the fullest degree available to them. There is absolutely no reason why the average person or corporate desktop user needs a non-NATted address. Only servers, routers, and other networking equipment truly needs dedicated internet-known IPs. And even that can be NATted in some situations. Properly managed, IPV4 can last for years.

NAT breaks a lot of RFCs. Things don't work the way they're supposed to when you're using NAT. It's better to have a real IP if possible.

JC, when I have to agree with CouchTest or Merc-man I get really excited! :lol:

Fushigi, if you read my posts (especially my ISP problem) in this thread you'll find why NATing and stuff like that is destroying our ability to create a perfect address system and share files like proper servers...
My ISP is using a NATing system and although I admit my PC can't be reached directly by outsiders (thus more secure), I can't properly run an FTP server. And yes I need to run one!


IIUC, the whole idea behind IPv6 is to never again care about NATing/Routing/Proxying since every electronic machine (yes, even your refrigerator!) working on this planet will be assigned a proper unique address. Am I right?

 

[Prof.Wizard]

You are way too sensitive. Temperature here outside often varies of 15C during the same day (in Summer) and as much as 25C within a 24 hours period in some Winter or early Spring days. So complaining about a scant two Celsius difference, I mean, give me a break. My sensitivity level is very well served by Celsius.

I think Mercutio was rightly talking about indoor temperatures, where you can sense the slight differences.
You don't happen to live in the dog's house in the garden, do you Couch? :lol:

 

[blakerwry]

Truth is most companies still hog way more addresses than they need. And fail to utilize NATting to the fullest degree available to them. There is absolutely no reason why the average person or corporate desktop user needs a non-NATted address. Only servers, routers, and other networking equipment truly needs dedicated internet-known IPs. And even that can be NATted in some situations. Properly managed, IPV4 can last for years.

NAT breaks a lot of RFCs. Things don't work the way they're supposed to when you're using NAT. It's better to have a real IP if possible.

JC, when I have to agree with CouchTest or Merc-man I get really excited! :lol:

Fushigi, if you read my posts (especially my ISP problem) in this thread you'll find why NATing and stuff like that is destroying our ability to create a perfect address system and share files like proper servers...
My ISP is using a NATing system and although I admit my PC can't be reached directly by outsiders (thus more secure), I can't properly run an FTP server. And yes I need to run one!


IIUC, the whole idea behind IPv6 is to never again care about NATing/Routing/Proxying since every electronic machine (yes, even your refrigerator!) working on this planet will be assigned a proper unique address. Am I right?

Prof. your ISP probably doesn't want you to be hosting servers on their service... if you want to host a proper FTP server then get a proper ISP(complaining in your sitation is like complaining that you can't get to 140mph in your car even though the speedometer goes that high). I'm positive that you can either pay for hosting or pay for bandwidth that will allow you to host yourself, however, neither option may be as cheap as what you're paying now.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

Prof. your ISP probably doesn't want you to be hosting servers on their service... if you want to host a proper FTP server then get a proper ISP(complaining in your sitation is like complaining that you can't get to 140mph in your car even though the speedometer goes that high). I'm positive that you can either pay for hosting or pay for bandwidth that will allow you to host yourself, however, neither option may be as cheap as what you're paying now.

I understand.
That's why I crave for IPv6. I wonder what their excuse would be on that case.

 

[Mercutio]

Probably that they don't want to deal with the insecurity of having people who really don't fully understand what they're doing running very hackable servers on their network.

I know that's the problem I'd have with it.

Or maybe the fact that you might be doing something illegal on your personal server that your ISP might somehow be liable for.

 

[Splash]

• It's certainly not unusual to see meteorological temperatures reported in 0.5 increments (e.g. -- 34.5°C).
  
• IPv6 is compatible with IPv4 and vice versa. I believe IPv6 is already being used on a backbone or two somewhere -- maybe the Project Abilene backbone.
  

 

[Prof.Wizard]

Probably that they don't want to deal with the insecurity of having people who really don't fully understand what they're doing running very hackable servers on their network.

I know that's the problem I'd have with it.

Or maybe the fact that you might be doing something illegal on your personal server that your ISP might somehow be liable for.

This isn't an excuse. The don't know (neither you do) what I'm running so they can't beforehand deny me a normal FTP server use because of abuse speculations. I haven't abused anything. Nor can they prove my Blackmoon FTP is already insecure.

I think my ISP was telling the truth. To cut they costs they implemented private IPs for normal use and public IPs (in request) for those that need them. But I think €4 for a daily public IP request is TOO much!

 

[Mercutio]

Sure it is. If your ISP is anything like most businesses, they probably don't have the time or an employee to spare to make sure that network services you're interested in providing on its network won't cause a problem for its other users.

They can take two approaches: 1.) Declare Servers to be generally banned without some additional compensation for the administrative headache you might cause or 2.) take the Wild Wild West anything goes approach. I'd argue the latter is irresponsible, particularly given the relative ease with which a script kiddie can hack your box.

This isn't about PW and his ability to secure a system. This is about ALL the customers, their needs, their abilities, and the level of service they are paying for.

If you want to be able to run servers willy-nilly, you probably should find a more permissive ISP or move to a different service plan.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

Thanks. I'll have that in mind.

 

[honold]

My ISP is using a NATing system and although I admit my PC can't be reached directly by outsiders (thus more secure), I can't properly run an FTP server. And yes I need to run one!

so, why don't you pay to run one just like anybody else with need would? your isp is not doing anything wrong.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

Because I wanted to cut down on hosting costs and use my PC's hard disk capacity and permament connection. Com'n, everybody with broadband is doing it.

Almost all ISPs I know give dynamic (or static) public IPs. My ISP is the fastest (in Italy), but has this problem... and the fee to rent a public IP per day (€4) is outrageously high. The hourly fee is even less cost-effective: €0.5 per hour!

 

[iGary]

Plenty of good readin' here:
http://www.ipv6style.jp/jp/index.shtml


...and the URL for the idiot foreigners is:
http://www.ipv6style.jp/en/index.shtml

 

[Prof.Wizard]

Prof. your ISP probably doesn't want you to be hosting servers on their service... if you want to host a proper FTP server then get a proper ISP(complaining in your sitation is like complaining that you can't get to 140mph in your car even though the speedometer goes that high). I'm positive that you can either pay for hosting or pay for bandwidth that will allow you to host yourself, however, neither option may be as cheap as what you're paying now.

My ISP's official standing on the matter... follows a Google translation.

Indirizzi IP, cosa sono e quali vengono assegnati ai clienti FastWeb Gli indirizzi IP (Internet Protocol) possono essere pensati come veri e propri indirizzi che vengono assegnati ai computer nel momento in cui entrano sulla rete Internet: sono formati da 4 gruppi di numeri (es: 123.212.189.123) e permettono ai vari computer di "vedersi" tra di loro sulla rete Internet. L'offerta FastWeb riservata alle famiglie, prevede l'assegnazione di fino a 3 indirizzi IP privati. Gli indirizzi IP privati hanno la caratteristica di non essere "visibili" dall'esterno della rete FastWeb: da qui il nome di "indirizzi privati". Il fatto di avere un indirizzo privato, non pregiudica in alcun modo la normale navigazione Internet: a tale fine la connessione FastWeb è del tutto assimilabile ad una connessione con indirizzo pubblico, solo molto, molto più veloce e sicura. Indirizzi IP all'interno della rete FastWeb Gli indirizzi privati garantiscono un elevato livello di sicurezza ai clienti FastWeb rendendo di fatto impossibili gli accessi non autorizzati al PC da parte di altri utenti collegati ad Internet, infatti connessioni sempre attive con indirizzi IP pubblici possono essere molto più facilmente oggetto di attacchi provenienti dalla rete Internet. Inoltre, la disponibilità di indirizzi IP pubblici, a livello mondiale è una risorsa piuttosto scarsa soprattutto a causa di una politica troppo permissiva di assegnazione degli indirizzi IP utilizzata in passato. Per questo motivo, l'Autorità che assegna alle società di telecomunicazione gli indirizzi IP pubblici per i propri clienti non può rilasciare a FastWeb, come alle nuove società di Telecomunicazione, un numero di indirizzi IP sufficienti per soddisfare le richieste dei propri clienti. Per questo motivo, FastWeb assegna ai propri clienti residenziali degli indirizzi IP privati di cui c'è sufficiente disponibilità. Nel momento in cui viene acceso, il PC richiede alla rete FastWeb l'indirizzo IP. Questa operazione, è gestita da particolari macchine presenti sulla rete FastWeb dette DHCP (Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol) server. Di default, il PC richiede al server DHCP lo stesso indirizzo che aveva ricevuto nella precedente connessione: se questo indirizzo è disponibile, gli viene riassegnato, in caso contrario ne viene assegnato uno nuovo. L'assegnazione dell'indirizzo IP, è un processo che dura pochi secondi ed è del tutto trasparente al cliente.

IP addresses, what are and which come assign to the FastWeb customers IP addresses (Internet Protocol) can be think to you like true and own addresses that come assign to you to the computers in the moment in which they enter on the Internet net: they are you form to you from 4 groups of numbers (es: 123.212.189.123) and they allow the several computers "to look at themselves" between of they on the Internet net. Classified the FastWeb offer to the families, previews the allocation of until 3 private IP addresses. Private IP addresses have the characteristic not to be "visible" from the outside of the FastWeb net: from here the name of "private addresses". The fact to have a private address, pregiudica in some way normal Internet navigation: to such aim the FastWeb logon is of the all assimilable to one logon with public address, single a lot, much faster and sure one. IP addresses to the inside of the FastWeb net the private addresses guarantee an elevated level of emergency to fact the FastWeb customers rendering impossible the accesses do not authorize you to the PC from part of other customers connect to you to Internet, in fact always active logons with IP addresses publics can more easy be much object than coming from attacks from the Internet net. Moreover, the availability of IP addresses publics, to world-wide level is one rather insufficient resource above all because of one political too much permissive of allocation of IP addresses used in past. For this reason, the Authority that assigns to the telecommunication societies IP addresses publics for the own customers cannot rilasciare to FastWeb, like to the new societies of Telecommunication, a number of sufficient IP addresses in order to satisfy the demands for the own customers. For this reason, FastWeb assigns to the own residential customers of private IP addresses of which there is sufficient availability. In the moment in which it comes ignited, the PC demands to the FastWeb net IP address. This operation, is managed from particular blots some present on the FastWeb net said DHCP (Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol) serveur. Of default, the PC demands to serveur DHCP the same address that it had received in the previous logon: if this address is available, it comes to it riassegnato, in contrary case comes some assigned one new. The allocation of IP address, is a process that hard little second ones and is of all the transparent one to the customer.

 

[Buck]

I like the untranslated version better, it has lots of "z"s. It looks like Tea wrote it.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

I like the untranslated version better, it has lots of "z"s. It looks like Tea wrote it.

The translation sucks, I should have done it myself.

 

[Onomatopoeic]

I like the untranslated version better, it has lots of "z"s. It looks like Tea wrote it.

Hmmm... I only see legitimate Kanji throughout (the first URL). :shake2: