Inwall Speakers

[Buck]

I am in the process of upgrading my surround sound speakers. Since space is very limited, I was thinking of putting the front left and right speakers in the ceiling. In your experience, does Polk make good speakers? Who is better? Price is somewhat of a contraint.

 

[mubs]

Sonance, in your neck of the woods (SJC or San Clemente, can't remember) makes speakers exclusively for in-wall applications. At least check out their offerings.

 

[Buck]

Thanks mubs, I forgot all about them. They are located in San Clemente, but you cannot purchase directly from them, you must go through a dealer.

 

[Fushigi]

Polks should be fine. Sand Diego-based Sound Pros carries them (although they're a 'call for info' brand) along with Proficient. Maybe others. I've always had good experiences dealing with them and have talked to Scott, the owner, several times. They've done a good job of helping me evaluate what's best for my situation. Not the cheapest around, but not the most expensive either.

 

[Howell]

Hopefully I'm not flogging the obvious but while front channel speakers do work fine in the wall, they may not work well in the ceiling as it is important to point them at the listener. Rear channel speakers do not need to be pointed at the listener.

Of course the speaker most need to be pointed at the listener is the center channel.

 

[Buck]

Thanks Howell, I've been thinking of that too. The room is roughly 14 x 14 feet. Presently, my stereo has front left and right bookshelf speakers with a center speaker, rear left and right speakers, plus an 8-inch active subwoofer. Those bookshelf speakers have no where to go in my new setup (I will be moving), and there will be no room for in-wall speakers. Hence, I have gone the route of in-ceiling speakers.

 

[Howell]

Have you considered speaker stands? That's what I had to do.

 

[Buck]

Speaker stands, or even narrow but tall speakers would still be awkward to have around. Here is a layout of the condo. Notice on the first floor, the fireplace and media center? The media center will have all of the audio and video stuff in it, except for the speakers. There really isn’t much room in front of the media area.

 

[Mercutio]

I just upgraded my gear recently.

For chrissakes, if you're spending real money on speakers, listen to them first. Buying speakers over the phone or online is a lot like buying a display online.

I auditioned B&W, Mirage and Wharfedale before deciding on an all-KEF setup for my living room.

Almost every brand I saw had an in-wall model (KEF's is the Ci-series). The installers I talked to even had motorized flip-out designs using regular speakers.

Simple "rules of thumb" with speakers: Don't buy speakers from companies that also make receivers. There are exceptions (Yamaha and Onkyo are both good consumer-type models), but in general, that's a good starting point. Also, don't buy Bose. Don't buy based on expectation or reputation, either ("Well, the guy in Sound and Vision gave this speaker a good review..."). There's just no substitute for actually listening.

 

[Mercutio]

So you're actually planning on putting all your stuff in that little hutch they give you?

I think that would be a PITA to deal with, as far as getting decent sound goes. I think I'd orient my living room to the straight, bare wall and put everything along that. Put speaker stands behind the couch or something.

 

[Buck]

I know, it is small. The measurements are: 36"W x 24"D x 96"T. It will house my television, VHS player and component stereo system. Plus all of my tapes, and CDs will get packed in there, along with anything else that will fit (no I don't own any DVDs at this time, nor do I have a DVD player of any sort -- but that will change soon).

Fortunately for me, my ears are not as delicate to sound as yours are Mercutio, maybe it is from all of those years working with very noisy equipment and no ear protection. So, I'm not terribly picky about my speakers, but I do value everyones opinion in this forum as many of you have much more experience with audio gear then I do.

Thanks for your help thus far.

 

[CougTek]

Put everything in the garage. From the plan you linked, it's obviously the roomiest room and the logical choice for your Home theater. No more place for your car? Sell it. It will please JTR.

 

[CougTek]

BTW, three bathrooms, great. So no matter how much life will piss you off, you'll never be far from relief.

 

[Howell]

BTW, three bathrooms, great. So no matter how much life will piss you off, you'll never be far from relief.

ROFL

 

[CityK]

I auditioned B&W, Mirage and Wharfedale before deciding on an all-KEF setup

Nice. I've owned B&W and Mirage (a fine Canadian product manufactured right here in Toronto....the actual manufacurer is Audio Products International. API produces the Mirage, Energy and Athena brands) and have really enjoyed the KEFs I've auditioned. In fact, if I was looking for speakers, KEFs would definitely be on the top of my short list....and likely to come out the winner.

CK

 

[Mercutio]

KEF Reference series + Integra DTR-8.2 (with builtin cat5 terminals for multiroom speaker wiring and a radio remote) = Heaven. Bliss. Plus the damn thing weighs 60lbs. Perfect for beating Greek medical students who tell me I don't know anything about audio equipment 'cause I don't like Bose.

 

[Mercutio]

Put everything in the garage. From the plan you linked, it's obviously the roomiest room and the logical choice for your Home theater. No more place for your car? Sell it. It will please JTR.

Why does anyone in California need a garage? Garages are for keeping you from having to scrape ice off your windshield. Buck, have you ever even SEEN snow?

 

[Dozer]

Also, don't buy Bose.

No highs, no lows, buy Bose.

 

[Howell]

Garage? That's where you keep the unused exercise equipement.

 

[Fushigi]

I just upgraded my gear recently.

Any local shops you'd recommend hitting? Tweeter may be OK, but I'd like more variety. A friend suggested Saturday Audio (or something like that) but I haven't been to their store yet. It's only open on Saturdays...

Simple "rules of thumb" with speakers: Don't buy speakers from companies that also make receivers.

Very strongly agree. While the idea of everything from a single source sounds great, like with PC gear no manufacturer does everything well.

 

[Mercutio]

I ended up buying from a little shop that just opened in Highland Indiana. They keep weird hours - I think they do installs during the day, but they carry Denon and Integra, KEF and B&W. Plus furniture, interconnects and home automation equipment. This after visiting several places over in your neck of the woods (Audio Consultants, Symphony Sound etc) and not being too terribly impressed.

 

[Fushigi]

For chrissakes, if you're spending real money on speakers, listen to them first. Buying speakers over the phone or online is a lot like buying a display online.

I forgot to comment earlier. I agree with this philosophy as speakers (and most other mid- to high-end AV gear) can have discernable differences in performance based on the acoustics & layout of the room they're in. I auditioned my Denon AVR-5700 receiver at United Audio (now Tweeter) but used Sound Pros to price-match and get UA from (IIRC) $2800 to a somewhat more reasonable $2295.

So even if you're not buying online, you can still use it as a bargaining chip. For me, it saved $500.

BTW, many of these shops will let you borrow a setup to try out at home for a day or two to make sure they're what you want. Take advantage of that if you can; it's the best way to make sure you're buying what you really want.

 

[Fushigi]

Saturday Audio's web site.

 

[Buck]

Why does anyone in California need a garage? Garages are for keeping you from having to scrape ice off your windshield. Buck, have you ever even SEEN snow?

Need a garage? I need room for a car and for my shop. Around here, the amount of fog we get makes your car filthy in about two days -- I hate washing my car.

Snow? Yes, I have seen snow and have driven in snow, in California. Where I live now, our usual mid-winter temps are in the low 30s, creating enough ice on my windshield to demand a scraper. So yes, I do have an ice scraper. However, where I am moving to, there will be no need. But we will get more fog (see Need a garage?).

Garages are . . . for storage. I need lots of storage. Driveways seem to be more for cars. (Although I won't have a driveway at my new place.)

 

[Howell]

Buck, How far are you moving? Miles. Apparently toward the coast?

 

[Mercutio]

Need a garage? I need room for a car and for my shop. Around here, the amount of fog we get makes your car filthy in about two days -- I hate washing my car.

What does low-hanging water vapor have to do with making your car dirty? Is the air THAT bad out there? 'Cause I living in the Toxic Waste Capital of the USA (Yes, Gary Indiana is worse than Newark, New Jersey), and our air isn't THAT bad.

 

[timwhit]

Need a garage? I need room for a car and for my shop. Around here, the amount of fog we get makes your car filthy in about two days -- I hate washing my car.

What does low-hanging water vapor have to do with making your car dirty? Is the air THAT bad out there? 'Cause I living in the Toxic Waste Capital of the USA (Yes, Gary Indiana is worse than Newark, New Jersey), and our air isn't THAT bad.

You don't live right in Gary, do you? I got lost in Gary one time, it smells pretty bad there.

 

[Buck]

Buck, How far are you moving? Miles. Apparently toward the coast?

Not very far, just in a different micro climate. Both places are the same distance from the ocean. San Juan Capistrano is more protected from the ocean side of things, but opens up to a small (4,000-feet) mountain range to the north east, which is where the cold air comes down from in the winter.

 

[Buck]

What does low-hanging water vapor have to do with making your car dirty? Is the air THAT bad out there? 'Cause I living in the Toxic Waste Capital of the USA (Yes, Gary Indiana is worse than Newark, New Jersey), and our air isn't THAT bad.

Low hanging water vapor occurs not only because of temp and humidity levels, but also because of air pollution (gives the water vapor something to condense on). The air is not that bad, it is actually pretty good (smog wise, but we do get particulates from the ocean, such as salt), but that fog sure can be thick. Sometimes our marine layer will stay over us for weeks, blocking out the sun. We usually don't have low-lying fog, but the high marine layer really increases our dew point, so overnight everything gets soaked, but not so much that the water runs off the car (like with rain). It makes the roads slick too. The moisture wets the streets, but doesn't clean them off like rain would.

 

[Howell]

*shudder* Dried salt water condensate on car paint. *shudder*

 

[Mercutio]

You don't live right in Gary, do you? I got lost in Gary one time, it smells pretty bad there.

I live in Hobart, which doesn't share a border with Gary. It's only really close to the Miller Beach (the Yuppie/Gay neighborhood that tries really hard to pretend it's a seperate town. My brother lives there. He has a house on the lake... which, if you can get past the fact that you're only 2 miles from where USX is dumping gods-know-what into the lake, is the only justifiable reason to live in Gary) area.

If you think Gary smells bad, try visiting Whiting on a windless day. You won't just call the EPA, you'll be calling Poison Control asking if you need to bleach your nose or anything.

 

[mubs]

Holy crap, you guys scare me. Is this the U.S. we're talking about or some third world country with no regard for the environment?

I guess I'd better ask here if I ever move. Great as the web is, finding this kind of info is next to impossible; either it ain't there or the S/N is too poor.

 

[CougTek]

I live in Hobart, ...

Looks like a nice place. I hope you're not too far from Lake George as it seems there are a lot of parks around it. Should be a relaxing environment at this time of the year, which you should be able to enjoy since the allergy period should be over.

Holy crap, you guys scare me. Is this the U.S. we're talking about or some third world country with no regard for the environment?

US is a third world country with regards to environmental care. Business and profit of neo-capitalist corporation is far too important to consider frightingly expensive ideas such as low-pollution measures. Don't even suggest those things or you might have your citizenship revoked for cause of anti-patriotism.

 

[Mercutio]

Holy crap, you guys scare me. Is this the U.S. we're talking about or some third world country with no regard for the environment?

Uh, what Coug said is basically true. When George Bush the second took office many of his first days in office were spent reversing EPA policies set by the Clinton administration, in the name of fostering a pro-business environment.

I've never really been to Lake Michigan in Indiana. It's right out my brother's back door (and about 150 feet, down a steep hill etc), but if you can imagine it, there are steel mills ringing the lakeshore from the Indiana border that starts in Hammond all the way to the north-and-westmost bit of Indiana at Michigan City. There are four huge mills (US Steel/Gary Works, LTV, ISG/Burns Harbor, and US Steel/Midwest), and small strips of land in between for lakeshore housing, National Parks, State Parks, County Parks... I work about three minutes away from Indiana Dunes National Park, and I've never been there; never seen any reason to go. Any time you get close to the Lake, no matter where you are, you can point and say "There's the steam from the stacks at ________" or "And there's the Coke Oven where my cousin works."

Which, obviously, kind of ruins the point of visiting Mt. Baldy.

Another view, so you understand why I'm not interested.

 

[CougTek]

Another view, so you understand why I'm not interested.

Without knowing what this is, it looks like the idea I have of a coal electric plant. The only I've seen were those in old SimCity games.

 

[Mercutio]

Steel mills tend to generate their own power; I think that's the Burns Habor mill formerly known as Bethlehem Steel and now ISG.

 

[timwhit]

Holy crap, you guys scare me. Is this the U.S. we're talking about or some third world country with no regard for the environment?

Uh, what Coug said is basically true. When George Bush the second took office many of his first days in office were spent reversing EPA policies set by the Clinton administration, in the name of fostering a pro-business environment.

I've never really been to Lake Michigan in Indiana. It's right out my brother's back door (and about 150 feet, down a steep hill etc), but if you can imagine it, there are steel mills ringing the lakeshore from the Indiana border that starts in Hammond all the way to the north-and-westmost bit of Indiana at Michigan City. There are four huge mills (US Steel/Gary Works, LTV, ISG/Burns Harbor, and US Steel/Midwest), and small strips of land in between for lakeshore housing, National Parks, State Parks, County Parks... I work about three minutes away from Indiana Dunes National Park, and I've never been there; never seen any reason to go. Any time you get close to the Lake, no matter where you are, you can point and say "There's the steam from the stacks at ________" or "And there's the Coke Oven where my cousin works."

Which, obviously, kind of ruins the point of visiting Mt. Baldy.

Another view, so you understand why I'm not interested.

I've been to the Indiana Dunes a bunch of times. It's really not that bad of a beach. The water is not that bad and there is no noticeable polution from what I've seen. There are plants visible on the skyline, but it doesn't seem to affect the beaches or anything.

 

[Buck]

Here is a weather update for the area in which I live at the moment.

7:00 am - low-mid 40s - cloudy; car covered with dew
11:00 am - 60 - partly cloudy

Very comfortable in my opinion.

____________

As for the in wall speakers, thank you for the input. I still have not made up my mind. They are not the most important items on my list at the present time. Getting this new place in decent shape by the builder for my second walk-through is of paramount concern at the moment. The first walk-through saw more flaws then the Russian space shuttle program. Each flaw was marked or highlighted by a thin strip of colored masking tape. The place looked like a Mardi gras parade went through it and all of the confetti stuck to the walls.

 

[Mercutio]

If your house is still being built, beg and plead with the eletrcians to get Cat5 and/or speaker wire put into your walls.

I just did the wiring in my house. It sucked beyond the telling of it to cut holes in finished drywall, climb around in my (way too hot) attic, fishing cable. Someday, I will make a cable harpoon.

 

[Buck]

If your house is still being built, beg and plead with the eletrcians to get Cat5 and/or speaker wire put into your walls.

I just did the wiring in my house. It sucked beyond the telling of it to cut holes in finished drywall, climb around in my (way too hot) attic, fishing cable. Someday, I will make a cable harpoon.

CAT5 comes in the walls; every room has one RJ-45 connector. Besides, the house is already done.