"Fleet computer challenge"

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
21,607
Location
I am omnipresent
I've been asked to come up with replacement PCs for approximately 60 lab computers, on a hardware budget of around $350/machine.

My requirements, other than that, are for a brand-name NIC (3com or Intel), smallish cases with 3 5.25" drive bays, fans that are actually quiet (classroom!), CD-ROM and a hard disk of at least 20GB. Machines are targeted for 2000 and XP, and I'm looking for solutions that DON'T involve all-in-one mainboards.

Anyone want to try their hand at making a good, working config?
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
21,607
Location
I am omnipresent
VIA's CPUs don't have anything close to "modern" performance and the $600 ars machine is a little bit out of my price range. :(

What I'm replacing is a whole bunch of K6-2/500 and P3-500 machines on mix-n-match integrated PC Chips mainboards, all with 64MB RAM (you wouldn't think there would be a whole lot of variety there, but I know of at least three different graphics chips and two different NICs) and 10GB-ish hard disks. By my inventory, maybe any four of them are identical.

Monitors and operating systems are already paid for.

Obviously, Dell and Gateway aren't going to touch that $350 price point (Gateway is selling a 256MB 1.8GHz Celeron for $500, though), and even though I'm usually really comfortable building low-end machines, this one is a little bit of a stretch for me.
 

timwhit

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
5,278
Location
Chicago, IL
I really don't think you can do it without integrated motherboards, and still have a fast machine. Even then it isn't easy.

$49 - INWIN ATX MID TOWER CASE MODEL # IW-S500P.300F - OEM with 300Watts Power Supply - AMD Approved & Pentium 4 Ready - support up to 1.4GHz, 7 Bay - 3 5.25" 4 3.5", one fan, 2nd fan is available-OPTIONAL - One Year Warranty

$28 - Lite On 52x Cd Rom - Model LTN-526 -RETAIL

$5 - COOLER MASTER DP5-6I11A CPU HEAT SINK AND FAN - RETAIL

$9 - Teac 1.44MB 3.5 Inch Floppy Drive

$66 - Maxtor 30GB 5400RPM Hard Drive Model# 2F030J0- OEM

$67.99 - CRUCIAL MICRON 256MB 32x64 PC 2100 DDR RAM - OEM

72.99 - Asus A7N266-VM NVIDIA nFORCE 220 Chipset 266/200MHz FSB Motherboard Micro ATX- Retail

$36 - CPU AMD DURON 1.1GHZ Socket A PGA Processor -OEM

~$25 - Shipping

$358 - Total

All these prices are from Newegg.

But that is using a integrated motherboard. I have built 2 systems around this board and they both ran really well. You also have an AGP slot an 3 extra PCI slots if you ever decide to change any of the onboard components.
 

Fushigi

Storage Is My Life
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
2,890
Location
Illinois, USA
I truly hate to even mention a vomit box, but Dartek has some deals on HP Pavilions: $379.99 for a Celery 1.2 / 128MB / 40GB / CD / modem / 10/100 / integrated audio/video w/speakers / XP Home / mouse / keyboard / floppy / usb / some software: http://www.dartek.com/ItemDetails/index.cfm?ItemNo=70403&Ref=3047

$40 more and you get 256MB & a CD-RW: http://www.dartek.com/ItemDetails/index.cfm?ItemNo=70197&Ref=3046

All things considered, I agree that you probably can't do it without going for integrated components.

Oh, Dartek has a Chicago burbs warehouse so you might be able to avoid shipping costs.

- Fushigi
 

blakerwry

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Oct 12, 2002
Messages
4,203
Location
Kansas City, USA
Website
justblake.com
I would almost have to say that it can't be done right now. Especially if they are looking for a significant performance boost.


The best bang for the buck would probably be the Duron or celeron(socket 370 variety) processor. I think the retail would be your best bet because of the built in heatsink/fan and i hear they are failry quiet. Duron's and celerons go for about the same($50-$60), but i had a hard time finding Retail Durons...

Persinally, I've looked at the VIA and they are not worth it. Duron or celery costs just as much but outperforms the c3 hands down.

Crucial.com gives a 10%-15% discount on RAM for businesses i believe... but their prices might be a little high (using PC133, $19 for 128MB or $34 for 256MB) I assume you'll want 256MB if you're using win2k or XP.

Anything 3com or Intel is likely to cost you $30 a pop which is out of the question. Personally I think my $8 Netgear FA311 is much better than the 10 3com's and the intel NIC I've had, it works in linux too.

A BENQ CD drive can be had reletively cheap($25)

A Quantum Fireball 5400rpm 20 gig is outrageously expensive at $60... a terrible deal.... the better bang for the buck wuld be the 40gig 7200rpm WesternDigital for $10 bucks more.

A motherboard is going to cost you ~$60 anywhere you go....

ATi rage 128pro/ Ati Xpert 2000 can both be had for $35-30

And lastly comes the case/PSU.... I've know where I canget a $25 ATX case w/ 400watt PSU... 3 5.25" bays and 3 3.5" bays.... only problem is the case isn't long enough so depending on the motherboard your CDROM drives might not fit in the bottom 2 5.35" bays.


Using the cheap case and making sure to buy a good mobo for it, the ATi graphics, generic motherboard, WD 40gb HDD, BenQ 52x CDROM, a Netgear NIC, 256MB of crucial PC133, and a celeron 1gHz processor I just barely scrape buy with a price tag of $297. Don't forget the Keyboard($10), mouse ($10), and floppy($10), along with any IDE/CD-ROM audio cables($10)... and you've gotten to about $340 not including shipping/taxes.

Your only savior is that some places will give you a volume discount if you're buying over 50 items... possibly also an educational discount and that would make up for the taxes/shipping. And of course I don't know if you can find these prices where you're located. Most the prices I got from www.mwave.com and www.allstarshop.com.


Of course, if you can reuse parts from the old machines it would be a bit of an easier decision. Simply look at what needs upgraded across the board and pop it in, I would think at a minimum you could keep the NIC, VID, Keybaord, Mice, Floppy, CD-ROM, and Case... possibly the RAM.
 

cas

Learning Storage Performance
Joined
May 14, 2002
Messages
111
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
Mercutio said:
My requirements... are for a brand-name NIC (3com or Intel)
Why?

This is an easy place to shave dollars off your sticker, and modern 100base-T devices are largely undifferentiated in high performance machines.

3Com in particular, would appear to be trading on name alone, when compared with more modern controllers.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
21,607
Location
I am omnipresent
Why the NIC? One of the requirements for 2000's RIS is a short list of network cards, most of which are made by 3Com or Intel. I'm not likely to run across a cache of Compaq or AMD NICs anytime soon, and cheapies like the RealTek or Davicom aren't supported. RIS would be a major, major maintenence timesaver for the labs, so I think it's worth the money.

About the only parts I'd be willing to re-use from the old machines is floppy drives. The hard disks are too small, the CD-ROMs are 24x drives that have a hard time with CD-Rs and -RWs, the RAM is PC100 and the power supplies are super-generic 150W models.
 

CougTek

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
8,726
Location
Québec, Québec
You wrote you don't want motherboards with a lot of integrated features, but I hope you don't mind to have at least integrated audio. Recent Realtek ALC650 audio chips are more than enough for any classroom (and most home users too).

I recommend Intel over 3Com for the NIC, as several 3Com LAN cards tend to crash under heavy traffic transfers. Besides, Intel isn't dearer at all.

It sems obvious but, you already have all the Winblows licenses for these boxes right?

I'll give it a shot, but it seems quite hard. An above-average enclosure I would suggest you to look at is the new Antec SLK1600. Nothing extraordinary, but it should get the job done for your boxes. More silent enclosures would requier thicker metal than the 0.6mm of the SLK1600, but they also cost significantly more too. At least with the SLK1600, you get a decent PSU for a reasonnable price.

If you opt for a Tualatiin-based Celeron, then you can allow yourself to drop the PSU to almost any generic 250W POS, it will still be fine. The problem with socket-370 Celeron is motherboard support. Almost non-existent nowadays. You have the choice between an Intel i815 with a 512MB RAM limit, or an almost impossible-to-find VIA Apollo 266T, which is the fastest chipset porduced for socket-370 CPU. The Apollo 133T is kind of sluggish, but it would allow you to use cheaper SDRAM instead of the DDR the 266T uses. The lack of decent support for the Tualatin-based Celeron is very sad, since the 1.1GHz and 1.2GHz flavors are one the best values among the budget CPUs.

Other than the Celeron, the Athlon 1600+ and 1700+ are also terrific values. But you don't want all-in-one solutions so you have to scratch the motherboard I consider to be the most bang-for-the-buck on the socket-A platform (the previously mentioned Asus A7N266-VM). Other than that, even though I like the ECS K7S5A, I can hardly recommend it for a 60 computers contract. It's a fine board, but I'm not sure I could trust it enough to build fill a one-batch order of 60 boxes with it. The almost twice-as-expensive GigaByte GA-7VAX is rock-solid, but probably too costly and anyway, the integrated LAN is from Realtek, not Intel or 3Com.

I dunno Merc. I'll play with my calculator a little this evening, but I don't think it's feasible to build a great box with a ++ NIC for so less.
 

CougTek

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
8,726
Location
Québec, Québec
I can't drop below 430U$ shipped to Indiana (from NewEgg.com). Maybe you should browse places like Ben's bargains to find a deal on hard drives or motherboards to lower your cost.

I also tried with Multiwave's web site and came up with a total of 449.61U$, shipped to Indiana (using fake Zip code 60248).

NewEgg
Athlon XP 1600+ OEM
Thermaltake Volcano 6Cu
ECS K7S5A (no other good cheap socket-A motherboard found in stock)
256MB PC2100
ATI Rage 2000 AGP
Maxtor DiamondMax 8+ 30GB
AOpen 56X CD-ROM (AOpen better than crappy Acer brand)
Antec SLK1600 w/300W PSU
Intel Pro/100 PCI NIC

429,97$ shipped


Multiwave
Athlon XP 1600+ OEM
CoolerMaster CP5-7JDIB-0L (24dB/a, good up to XP 2600+)
GigaByte 7DXE (AMD761)
256MB PC2700 KingMax (cheaper than other brands, just as good)
ATI Radeon 7000 AGP
Maxtor DiamondMax 8+ 30GB
LG 52X CD-ROM
Enermax CSX-003-blablabla (looks nice, seems good)
Intel Pro/100 PCI NIC

449,61$


As you can see, you can't drop much lower than that if you want to use relatively good stuff. Even then, I had to make so sacrifices. Personallly, for the 20$ difference, I would take the second system.
 

Cliptin

Wannabe Storage Freak
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
1,206
Location
St. Elmo, TN
Website
www.whstrain.us
I suspect you do not want all-in-one motherboards because then students don't get to learn the joys inserting cards and installing drivers. Or is this a blind hatred for all-in-one solutions. :D

If it is the case, an all-in-one solution(or nearly) may get you close to your target price but allow you to buy some extra, no-name, cheap stuff for the classroom antics. This way you would have cheap systems that would run well enough for sofware stuff and still be cheap.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
21,607
Location
I am omnipresent
I'm not sure about cases. Probably the most economical thing to do is order a couple pallets of my Compucase 6812. I think they run $28 or $29 in bulk, plus freight (I pay $33 each for mine, which I understand is cost). Those are decent. I just bought my first Antec case the other day, though, Coug. I'm looking forward to using it.

My budget is right around $22,000 (I'll save a bit to cover incidentals, like DOAs). I wish I could even get $25,000. I can't. The other $3000 is going to cover network infrastructure stuff (a proper network installation, basically). It's just to the point where we can't wait any longer to do the upgrades; part of the contractual obligation of the company is to provide computers that are less than three years old, and right now we're stretching things to say that the definition of three years is "anything less than four".

Buying in quantities of 50+ ought to make purchasing easier and cheaper, but I haven't found anyplace selling on quite that level that will actually discount, er, anything. Newegg certainly won't, and the "friend prices" I get from my local guys seem to go away when I want something big (ie, they know I have someone else's money).

Yes, the thing with the motherboards has a lot to do with replaceable parts. There are at least two dozen machines in the labs right now that have either a video card or a NIC installed because the damn thing on the board failed (in addition, by my count, eight machines failed badly enough over the last two years that they were replaced by something that's good enough to actually keep). That's just not acceptable for anything *I* am fully responsible for. Students will be tinkering, too, of course.

Buck, WOL is utterly unnecessary.
 

Tea

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,749
Location
27a No Fixed Address, Oz.
Website
www.redhill.net.au
A very interesting question, Mercutio. Anything I can offer won't be directly relevant, of course, but for the sake of the exercise, and assuming that US$350 equals $AU700, here is what I'd do:

First, examine the possibility of using a proper all seperate components design. That takes about five minutes: on AU$700 per unit, it just ain't possible. You have to gio integrated, I'm afraid, or else give up on one of your other requirements - i.e., US$350 per, or name-brand NIC. An Intel NIC alone is close to AU$100.

Seems to me your only possbility is to see if you can't find a stock of Socket 370 Intel chipset boards with integrated Intel LAN. That meand crappy integrated Intel video, of course, but it's the only way you are going to get an Intel NIC for, essentially, nothing - and on US$350 per, you have to get it for nothing, 'cause you ain't got enough money to pay for it.

So: Socket 370 integrated board is your starting point. For a CPU you are obviously going Celeron 1100 or 1300 or thereabouts. They are great lttle performers, almost the equal of Durons, much faster than the 1700MHz Socket 478 Celerons, and best of all, they use SDRAM, which (in case you haven't noticed yet) is suddenly less than half the price of DDR! Right now I can buy 256MB of DDR for $109ex, 256MB of SDRAM for $44. Sure, DDR is better, but you can't afford DDR, and you can't afford the DDR mainboard, and if you could, you couldn't afford the Intel NIC to put into it anyway.

Celerons are quiet (or at least, you can use a small, quiet fan). They don't draw lots of power like P4s and Athlons, so you can economise on the case and PSU as well. All in all, I don't like them, but they are the only thing that's within cooee of your budget and within cooee of your requirements.
 

Tea

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,749
Location
27a No Fixed Address, Oz.
Website
www.redhill.net.au
Now some numbers. Assuming a reasonable quantity buy (10 or more), I could sell you (if you were here in Ballarat) this system for AU$730:
  • Our cheapest half-decent case. (Plenty of room, nominal 350W PSU that probably puts out 280 on a good day but still manages K with Athlon 2000s. Decent but not great build quality.)
  • Intel chipset i810 mainboard with Intel NIC and integrated everything.
  • Celeron 1100
  • 256MB SDRAM
  • 40GB 7200 RPM Spinpoint (or 20GB and 5400 RPm at a trivial saving)
  • Panasonic FDD
  • 52X Mitsubishi CD-ROM

My assumptions here are that you are paying up front - no, you can't have credit terms at those prices - that you don't need keyboards or mice, and that I can still get S370 boards with the integrated Intel LAN chip.
 

Tannin

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
4,448
Location
Huon Valley, Tasmania
Website
www.redhill.net.au
It's all very well for Tea to fiddle about telling you things that you already know, but what you really need to think about is the things that you don't know. Viz:
  • What is the basis on which your budget was set?
  • Who makes the budgetary decisions?
  • Are they reasonably well aware of the costs and benefits of different strategies when it comes to computer purchase?
Your job, as I see it, is to translate the technical realities of the situation in such a way that they, the decision makers, can clearly see what the choices are, and can then make an appropriate purchasing decision in possesion of all the facts.

I suspect that, at present, they are operating on the time-honoured management philosophy that you work out the absolute minimum cost to get whatever needs to be done taken care of, and then reduce it by an arbitrary amount, typically 20%. Having done that, you then hand the entire responsibility for the purchase over to an underling As soon as anything goes wrong, you fire the underling, and hire one who will work even longer hours for less money, and tell him to do the same job on 25% less than is actually needed. (Alternatively, you can not fire the underling, simply haul him over the carpet for his gross errors and extract yet more sweat from him in future, not to mention his gratitude for not sacking him in the first place.)

This is how an alarming number of small businesses run. (I could give you a list of Ballarat and Melbourne businesses that work exactly this way, starting with the local technical training college, who are notorious for it.)

Or, of course, it could be that they simply don't know what computer equipment costs, or that they simply don't have any more money in the kitty and the $25,000 is all that is availabe.

So, what you do is you take care to place the responsibility where it actually belongs: with the financial decision makers. You start by finding a solution that will comply with their brief. Something like Tea's system above would be suitable. You get it down on paper, you cost it out to within a few hundred dollars, and you write down as honestly as you can the strengths and weaknesses of the system. (I find that having a system description followed by short "for", "against", and "summary" sentences works well.)

Next, you do the same thing with a technically ideal system. For example, Athlon XP 1600, 256MB DDR, Intel NIC, and so on.

Then you do it again with some other combinations. Is it possible to consider, for example, good systems made affordable by re-using some existing parts - e.g., hard drives, CD-ROM drives, network cards, cases, floppy drives, RAM? Be creative with this: maybe there are fifteen systems that are not too bad still, and which, with the benefit of some extra RAM stolen from the old systems, or a second HDD to fit the swap file, or one of the better remaining CD drives, could be made presentable enough to do another three years. Maybe some of the tasks that these systems do are lower priority, so you could use existing systems for those, so as to preserve some budget dollars for more critical tasks.

And so on. You want to wind up with a two to three page document with no less than three and no more than six options on it that you present to your superiors on the following basis:

The provision of IT equipment is a key decision for the future of [this business]. The upcoming purchase will be something we here at [name of business] will have to live with for the next three years. Always, with a complex system such as a computer network, there are trade-offs to be made: no decision is compromise-free. While I have been tasked with the responsibility for judging the technical suitability of the purchase, the decision necessarily also involves longer-term business strategy decisions which are more appropriately made by [insert name of decision-making body here]. This paper sets out the main purchasing options, together with a summary of the advantages and disadvantages of each.


Then you lay out your four or five options. I'd have something like this:



Option 1: 60 integrated systems as outlined by Tea: Celeron 1100, on-board LAN, etc. $350 per unit.
For: Low initial cost, complies with networking requirements.
Against: Obsolescent technology, shorter expected useful working life, minimal residual value.
Summary: A good solution but only in the short term.

Option 2: 60 seperate component systems based around Athlon 1600 DDR, Intel NIC, stand-alone video card, good quality case. $450 per unit.
For: Very much more powerful (and hence longer-lasting) than Option #1, more flexible to cope with unexpected new requirements, cheaper to maintain, excellent upgrade prospects for lower long-tern cost of ownership.
Against: Initial cost. Given contractually-required replacement in three years, we may face having to replace machines that are still perfectly suitanble.
Summary: The best technical solution, and quite possibly the lowest long-term cost solution, but more expensive in the short-term.

Option 3: 45 seperate component systems as in Option #2, upgrade and refurbish the 15 systems in Room 14A (give details).
For: Blah blah blah.
Against: Blah blah blah.
Summary: Blah blah blah.

And so on.

Business are like the military. They have a chain of command. And one of the most important things about the chain of command in an efficient, effective business, just as it is in the military, is that there is a productive flow of information in both directions. You need to know what the strategy of the business is (as it applies to IT purcasing] and they need to know what the tactical constraints are that you, their representative, face in trying to implemernt their strategy successfully. They need to be kept informed of what the real, practical effects of the IT purchase will be.

Sure, you, as a teacher, would love to have 120 XP 2800s with 2GB RAM and a 30-processor Opteron server. And they, as financial controllers, would like you to get by with a half-dozen Pentium 150s. It's not for you to say "we need such-and-such". But is part of your job to make sure that you communicate the actual, practical import of your purchasing decision to the management, so that they know exactly what the consequences of the purchasing decision are. If, in full possession of the facts, they tell you to rush out and buy Option #7, which was 60 El-cheapo PC Chips crap boxes and that they don't mind if 30% of them are unservicable 90% of the time, then that's OK. You have given good advice and done all you can. It's not for you to decide strategy. Your task is to divine the strategy, and then provide the best practicable tactical implemetation of it.
 

P5-133XL

Xmas '97
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,173
Location
Salem, Or
Tannin again gives good advise here. good politics. I think that giving multiple options with benefits/risks to those higher-up and then force them to decide is an excelent solution to your problem Merc. By suppling you with a untenable budget and total responsibility, they have made you personally responsible for later problems. Pass those decisions up the ladder and make someone else responsible, so it can't haunt you later.
 

cas

Learning Storage Performance
Joined
May 14, 2002
Messages
111
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
Merc, you may be aware that I am working on something designed for similar environments. My boards would replace the floppies, hard drives, cd-roms, and NICs with a single device. This would make meeting your target price pretty easy. It would also remove the most failure prone devices from the system.

If you have a moment, would you mind describing how the machines will be used? What applications will be used by the students? Will all 60 machines use the same image (at least to start?)

I realize that in some educational environments, it's a good idea to stick to components common in the field, but the more I can learn about the market, the better.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
21,607
Location
I am omnipresent
Our machines are dual boot (Win98/2000 at present, 2000/XP starting next year). Some of the machines have two removable drive cages for "pristine" 98 or 2000 systems, and a few (in crummier cases) have both on the same disk. The majority of instruction involves the "consumer" system, although one of our large customers is standardized on 2000, so it is the instructor's choice whether to use 98 or 2000 in teaching.
At the moment these machines have all three of Office 97, 2000 and XP on them. I believe the last office 97 classes were just taught this June. In addition, the machines have a large complement of testing and practice testing software installed and the usual assortment of Symantec AV 8, winzip, acrobat, nero (some of the machines have CD-RW drives) and a CD-R labelling package, Wordperfect... some of the machines also have quicken and quickbooks, some have Corel & Adobe graphics apps, and some have autoCAD. We're planning to add video editing classes in the near future, and I know that's going to be a big change in storage usage.

Of course, I have no earthly idea how much of that stuff is actually used, and licensing costs for software just absolutely destroy us, even at educational rates. We mostly service steelworker's union-mandated training benefit, and steel isn't a very good thing to do in the US (hasn't been for a while), so this $25,000 I have to play with is literally all I'm going to get for now.

We're really looking at around 5GB per OS + apps, and with that much crap loaded on the machines, you KNOW they aren't going to be running optimally.

The other issue is that we don't want to move the machines too far from a default state. We want the machines to be like what they would have at home or work.

Using sysprep/RIS, I'd be able to set up a number of different classroom configurations that could then be blown away at will, and restored to a pristine state with very little effort. Ghost would work too, of course, but RIS is essentially a ghost multicast server that's always running, so the amount of intervention on the part of the non-technical employees would be much, much lower.

I honestly don't think we have the network infrastructure to implement your system, cas. I don't even have a switch here at the moment, just a bunch of 8 and 12-port hubs that are strung around with crossover cables (see "not having a proper network installation", above).
 

Tea

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,749
Location
27a No Fixed Address, Oz.
Website
www.redhill.net.au
Seems to me you need some horsepower, Mercutio. This video editing thing is particularly scary from a budget point of view. I've changed my mind, now that I know the workload. I think you have to go with decently powerful machines, even if it means fewer of them.

It's late and I'm sleepy, so I'll not go into any detail just yet, but it sounds to me as though your imperative is to get a foundation set of machines with decent horsepower first - Athlon XP 1600, 256MB DDR, 40GB 7200, 32MB video cards (or Nforce perhaps - you should be able to pick up Nforce 1s for not too much very soon, as the Nforce II is due) and find a way to somehow coddle up the other 30% or 40% of your fleet such that they are still good for light duty - even if you have to resort to just adding RAM (a good deal of which can come out of the retiring machines) and putting them into new cases.

My educated guess is that KT266A boards will drop right off the radar soon, just as soon as 166MHz FSB Athlons become readily available, and that will be a good opportunity to pick up seriously fast hardware for a relatively small cost.

Also, would you mind explaining what RIS is, why you need it, and what alternative technologies exist? Bear in mind that your answer will cost you ... er ... 60 * AU$100 = $6000 - 60 * AU$20 = AU$4800 - cost of Intel NICs for key machines, say AU$ 500 = AU$4300 = close enough to US$2100. You can do quite a bit with US$2100, and if you can figure out a way to use Realteks (or something similar) in your non-mission critical machines, that's a very worthwhile addition to your budget.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
21,607
Location
I am omnipresent
I wish I could use Tulip cards. Linksys NICs are dirt cheap, too, but not every Linksys 10/100 card is a Tulip and I don't know any other decent vendors for that one.

RIS is Remote Install Service. Using a fully-patched Windows 2000 server, I can use a program called sysprep to remove all the identifying characteristics of a Windows 2000/XP installation, such as the machine name and SID, ghost that "sysprepped" machine, and place that image on a file share. I can even do this after having installed applications and device drivers, as long as I'm working with the same HAL and (roughly) the same motherboard chipset.
Once RIS images are in place, the remote install service operates either through PXE (not on my budget!) or supported NICs (select Intel, 3Com, Tulip, Compaq, HP, and AMD cards) + boot disks. Pop in a boot disk, run an unattended install script and, in about 20 minutes of multicasting plus about five minutes of first-boot setup, I've completely re-set the machines.

If it works, and it should, it'll be beautiful.

I could also do ghost multicasts, but then I have the even bigger pain of either making a boot image that holds ghost + a working DOS packet driver (er, we're back to 3Com and Intel, I couldn't get realtek's to work when I tried it). If I put that on a CD, then I might as well put the whole image on the CD(s), and then there's manpower issues with going between the machines, CDs getting dirty, scratched or lost, other employee not knowing how to use ghost...

Basically, RIS looks really attractive. The savings in terms of time/manpower will justify itself very quickly, and I'll have more time to post here.

I can't seem to do much better than $400 for a rock-bottom duron system right now. This is going to be harder than I thought. :(
 

Buck

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 22, 2002
Messages
4,514
Location
Blurry.
Website
www.hlmcompany.com
That is a difficult price Mercutio. The best I've done is about $390.00. That would take a 60 PC purchase to over $23,000.00. But that would be a 1.1 Ghz Duron system with an Intel NIC (not integrated). Of course, these prices are based on a purchase of 60 + PCs.
 

Bozo

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 12, 2002
Messages
4,396
Location
Twilight Zone
Short note on cheap NICs. Just installed some 3COM SOHO cards (~$20) and found they really slow down when transfering large files. In fact, they are three times slower than 3c90x cards. This could be rather agonizing when rebuilding from your server.

Bozo :D
 

Buck

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 22, 2002
Messages
4,514
Location
Blurry.
Website
www.hlmcompany.com
Bozo said:
Short note on cheap NICs. Just installed some 3COM SOHO cards (~$20) and found they really slow down when transfering large files. In fact, they are three times slower than 3c90x cards. This could be rather agonizing when rebuilding from your server.

Bozo :D

Those 3COM SOHO cards also have a published limitation of 50 cards on a network.
 

cas

Learning Storage Performance
Joined
May 14, 2002
Messages
111
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
How is that possible? When they see the 51st MAC address the drivers just start throwing frames away? Ugh.

RTL8139C is $3.50 in qnty of 500. They are capable of 11MB/s+ in modern machines.
 

cas

Learning Storage Performance
Joined
May 14, 2002
Messages
111
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
cas said:
3Com in particular, would appear to be trading on name alone
I am not sure if "Designed for Windows-based networks of up to 50 PCs", really means their drivers enforce a limitation of 50 PCs. Even so, it's pretty lame.
 

Buck

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 22, 2002
Messages
4,514
Location
Blurry.
Website
www.hlmcompany.com
cas, I have no idea what would enforce this limitation (perhaps it's simply unusually slow performance), but publishing this type of statistic sure speaks poorly of 3COM's hardware/software implimentation for this particular product.
 

Bozo

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 12, 2002
Messages
4,396
Location
Twilight Zone
I was testing three new servers with a SOHO and 3C90x cards installed. I transfered two 650MB Drive Image files between the servers. It took three times longer on the SOHO cards as the 3C90x cards. Our vender told me that's because there is no 'cache' on the SOHO. (Therefore, cheap). Maybe another brand would be better. :-?

Bozo :D
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
21,607
Location
I am omnipresent
I hate myself for this one but...

Shuttle AK32L @ $55 (newegg) is just about as disgustingly cheap as things get. If the 1600+ can fall another $10 or so, this might actually be doable.

Of course, RAM prices will probably eat all that... Gads this is awful. How do you stay in business, Tony?
 
Top