Best 2D Graphics card for $100

Gilbo

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The Best GPU for $100 thread that Clocker started reminded me that I have a budget (ideally) video card purchase coming up. The decision has become surprisingly difficult, so I am hoping to leverage some of SF's experience.

Just about the only work I do that is demanding on hardware is Photo Editing, and this pretty much exclusively drives my hardware purchases.

Crucial considerations:
1. Linux support. The computer runs Linux so this is mildly important. nVidia is certainly the leader with respect to this consideration.
2. 3D performance is utterly irrelevant.
3. 2D analog signal quality is crucial. This is the kicker. The card needs to drive two displays at 2048 x 1536 at 75Hz (a little room in the specs would be nice though). My research indicates this requires 350+Mhz RAMDACs (which are pretty common these days).

Now, you can get an NVidia 5200 with dual 400Mhz RAMDACs quite inexpensively these days. Unfortunately, the RAMDACs don't appear to be the be all and end all when it comes to 2D analog signal quality. I've read numerous reports of cards --particularly NVidia cards-- offering terrible analog signals to monitors at high resolutions and refresh rates. I hear it relates to capacitors? I have mild electrical skills, but please don't ask me to solder audiophile capacitors onto the ass of my graphics card in search of a good deal :cry:.

I am very curious to hear about what experiences, if any, any of you at SF have had at the higher resolutions with analog connections. I currently run 1600x1200@75Hz on a Matrox G550. The image is perfectly fine and I can make none of the complaints I have heard from NVidia and ATI owners regarding blurriness, fuzziness, and various general funniness at high resolutions. I also have never seen the output of an NVidia or ATI video card above 1280x1024, so I have little experience to bring to the table regarding what differences there really are between Matrox and other brand cards. Is there really a problem with the non-Matrox cards?

Why don't I use Matrox? Matrox does indeed seem to be the logical choice, although there is quite a premium attached to their cards. I discovered during the course of my research (while lurking and searching at the Matrox forums) that Matrox's 2D reputation, in one specific respect, is rather undeserved. It appears that even the Parhelias can't push 24-bit colour, or greater, above resolutions of 1600x1200 pixels with 2 monitors. You must make various tradeoffs to go above 1600x1200, one of which is 16-bit colour (I had a better link earlier but I lost it). This does not appear to be an issue with NVidia or ATI cards. I posted regarding my concerns here, and while the thread looks very nice it is an example of my problem. One, the official Matrox posters avoid at all costs telling users the specifics publically on the forum --I had to dig up a post by a user regarding the details of the tradeoffs to find out about 16 bit colour, which I can't find anymore. Two, the sales team messed around with me for a couple e-mails and also avoided giving me specifics. I never extracted anything of value regarding my specific usage. Consequently I would prefer an alternate solution.

So, does anyone think any NVidia 5200-based cards are going to offer decent signal quality at higher resolutions? Any specific brands that might by a good bet? Will I have to go to the more expensive cards (5700 etc) to get 400Mhz RAMDACs that are strapped to decent filters and produce quality output? Am I doomed to having to make a blind purchase and return and swap cards until I find one that doesn't make my monitors blurry?
 

Gilbo

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There's a plethora of 5200s with solid RAMDACs. In fact I don't think video cards come with anything that tops out below 2048x1536@75Hz these days.

I easily found these:
MSI's (400Mhz RAMDACs), PNY's (350Mhz RAMDACs), Chaintech's (350Mhz RAMDACs), ASUS' (350Mhz RAMDACs), and Gainward's (400 Mhz RAMDACs).

It's a rather difficult dilemna. I don't want to spend more than I have to, and I only need 2D performance, but I don't trust the components on the outputs of the low-end cards. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if the highend cards used the exact same low pass filters.

I'm beginning to wish hardware review sites would look into 2D quality. I don't like buying blind.
 

Will Rickards WT

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$100... and 2D quality only matters....
Why not use two cheap ATI cards? one AGP and one PCI? I found plenty for under $50 when I looked at newegg. You just have to find two that are able to handle the resolutions you are talking about.
 

Gilbo

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Why not use two cheap ATI cards? one AGP and one PCI?
That is a good suggestion and one that I've looked into. I have several concerns.

My concern with ATI cards specifically is that their driver support for Linux is not nearly the priority that NVidia makes it. X is taking advantage of more and more 2D hardware acceleration these days to render newer, more complicated desktops. Consequently, video card driver support is becoming important even if 3D is not a concern.

Additionally, considering that all the accounts that I've read regarding analog signal quality are rather anecdotal, I don't really have much faith that ATI cards are necessarily going to have decent 2D signal quality. I've heard mixed reviews. I know there are a lot of people here whose opinions I trust and have probably seen both ATI & NVidia cards working at higher resolutions. Is there really a concensus that Matrox > ATI > NVidia or some such? Is it founded in issues that existed years ago or presently?

Random tidbit on Xinerama:
I initially steered clear of the two video card route thinking it would complicate using dual monitors in Linux (I haven't done the dual monitor thing in Linux before). I was initially worried I would have to run two seperate X sessions to take advantage of two video cards, but Xinerama will work with two seperate cards. Nice eh?
 

Gilbo

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The random tidbit above is probably a consequence of the fact that one only runs one X server with one config even if you run multiple X Server sessions... :oops:
 

ddrueding

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Just for the record, I just set up and tested 2x Mitsubishi 2040U monitors @ 2048x1536x32@75 running off a Radeon 9800Pro and a 9600Pro Ultimate Edition. They both looked the same to me. I don't have any other things to compare, though.
 

Mercutio

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Blah blah blah nvidia crap blah blah

Solid Linux support? Awesome 2D?

You want a Matrox card. Find yourself a G450 and bask in the warmth of its greatness.
 

ddrueding

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How much heat does a G450 put out?

I've come to the conclusion that a cooler, quieter system is more important than the possibility of playing games that I haven't touched at home for nearly 3 months.

My only apps are web, office, winamp, DVD, photoshop; I take it this card will handle these tasks as well as the 9800Pro that's currently in there?
 

Tannin

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ddrueding said:
How much heat does a G450 put out?

None to speak of. They don't even bother with a fan.

All this talk of Nvidia vs ATI video quality, BTW, is hogwash. Video quality is about attention to detail and quality components on the part of the card manufacturer.
 

ddrueding

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Tannin said:
ddrueding said:
How much heat does a G450 put out?

None to speak of. They don't even bother with a fan.

All this talk of Nvidia vs ATI video quality, BTW, is hogwash. Video quality is about attention to detail and quality components on the part of the card manufacturer.

Well, my 9800Pro doesn't have a fan either...but it definatly doesn't help case temps much, it has a massive zalman heatsink that is constantly radiating heat at 45C. I know my case temps would do much better to get a G450 in there, and it's DVI quality @ 1280x1024 shouldn't be that bad...

I'll also second the that ATI and NVidia have nothing to do with picture quality; the only reason Matrox can be spoken of in such terms is that they make their own cards.
 

Gilbo

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Video quality is about attention to detail and quality components on the part of the card manufacturer.

I'll also second the that ATI and NVidia have nothing to do with picture quality; the only reason Matrox can be spoken of in such terms is that they make their own cards.

I certainly agree, but I'm curious whether anyone has experience with any companies that they would trust regarding 2d quality (other than Matrox)?

PNY maybe? They also target the workstation market. ASUS?

I've never used anything but Matrox cards. I'm tempted to do as Merc and Will suggest, but the Matrox Linux drivers are dead and developments in Linux's X Server mean that hardware acceleration is once again becoming important for 2 dimensional graphics. Work on using OpenGL libraries, for example, for rendering 2D information is already well underway (the Glitz project). NVidia is the only video card company I know with genuinely solid driver support today and into the future for Linux. Unfortunately NVidia chips appear to be commonly integrated onto boards that use cheap, crappy components.

Surely there must be at least one respectable manufacturer that produces boards with NVidia chipsets? This is essentially the object of my search at the moment.

And thank you, everyone, for the advice you've given so far.
 

Tannin

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Leadtek? ASUS? I'm only guessing though, as 2D quality isn't really an issue with the resolutions I run. (1280 max: I have yet to see any monitor thatt I'd regard as usable over 1280 x 1024. Well, an LCD, of course, but not in CRT. And I own a 22 inch Mitsubishi. It runs, of course, on a G450, same as all my other computers.)
 

MaxBurn

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I am going to second the Matrox decision, great cards. I picked up a G400 Dual Head MAXX for about $40 on ebay.
 

Mercutio

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I bought 16 G450 dualheads for $30 apiece today. :p

Honestly, I don't believe that any manufacturer in consumer space is making nvidia-based cards with an emphasis on visual quality. Yes, I'm biased as all hell. I'm also right. :p

Really, you want an nvidia card with decent output quality, I think the best thing you could do is find an old Quattro (or whatever the hell they're called). I'm sure they turn up on Ebay.
 

MaxBurn

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I was so interested when the Pharelia was getting close to release with all the hype, and then it turned out to not be that great in gaming and expensive to boot. I hope some day they make a really great gaming card along with the high quality they already have, will have a welcome home in my machine.
 
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