Ever deepening hatred for WD

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
21,593
Location
I am omnipresent
<rant>
Has anyone been forced to be in the same room with a recent-vintage *JB drive? I'm talking about the 1600JB, 2000JB or 2500JB, here, not the original 80 - 120GB models.

I have two of the 250GB models and one 160GB (all, at this point, have "refurbished" stickers on them, by the way). They're all REALLY LOUD.

I don't have many SCSI drives any more. An old 4.5GB Micropolis 7200rpm unit. A bunch of 4.5GB Barracudas. A 9GB Cheetah. A couple of 36GB Ultrastars.

Guess which drives are subjectively louder?
</rant>
 

zx

Learning Storage Performance
Joined
Nov 22, 2002
Messages
287
Location
Beauport, Québec, Canada
Ouch! That's loud. I find that WD drives are somewhat inconsistent on the noise front. I had two WD400JB and one of them was louder than the other. It's the loudest drive I have, next to a Fujitsu 15K drive (1st gen).
 

timwhit

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
5,278
Location
Chicago, IL
I just sold a 1000bb because it had gotten so loud over the last 18 months that it was just about deafening. Replaced it with a Seagate 200GB 7200.7, which is a vast improvement. No more WD for me.
 

Tannin

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
4,448
Location
Huon Valley, Tasmania
Website
www.redhill.net.au
I have become really boring on hard drives these days. Essentialy, we only sell Samsung 7200s. What it comes down to, is that I just don't trust WD drives, or Seagates. I don't have access to Maxtors at sensible prices (and if I did, I'd rather have Samsungs anyway), and the only drive that has made me even think about buying it of late is the Hitachi Deskstar. But, seeing as they are around the same price as a Samsung, why?

Outside of Samsung, Samsung, and Samsung, the only drives I like are Seagate 15,000 RPM units.

Pretty boring, huh?
 

timwhit

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
5,278
Location
Chicago, IL
I buy other drives because of amazing rebate offers I can get. I got the 200GB Seagate for $100 after rebate.

I would probably buy Samsung too if I could get a drive for that price.

Also I keep running out of room, so the bigger the drive the better.
 

LiamC

Storage Is My Life
Joined
Feb 7, 2002
Messages
2,016
Location
Canberra
Forgot to add, no drive I have ever had, has been as loud as the two Quantum Fireball KA+ (13.6GB that I've had)
 

LunarMist

I can't believe I'm a Fixture
Joined
Feb 1, 2003
Messages
16,665
Location
USA
timwhit said:
I buy other drives because of amazing rebate offers I can get. I got the 200GB Seagate for $100 after rebate.

I would probably buy Samsung too if I could get a drive for that price.

Also I keep running out of room, so the bigger the drive the better.

Same here. One or more large drives is on sale w/rebate at a major store every day. I like the retail packaging and ability to return the odd drive that is bad out of the box, too. The loudest drive ever was a WD-BB and each of the half-dozen WD drives >30GB/platter were noisy. I sold all but one over the last year.
 

Buck

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 22, 2002
Messages
4,514
Location
Blurry.
Website
www.hlmcompany.com
I doubt that it will, but just in case this will make you feel better, WD is switching to FDB throughout the year, and eventually all of the AB, BB, and JB models will be non-ball bearing type. Unfortunately, you won't be able to tell the difference looking at the model number as they make this quiet switch.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
21,593
Location
I am omnipresent
Plus there's the fact that they only give me the ones that break. Is there a way to tell that by the label?
 

Buck

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 22, 2002
Messages
4,514
Location
Blurry.
Website
www.hlmcompany.com
Mercutio said:
Plus there's the fact that they only give me the ones that break. Is there a way to tell that by the label?

Yes there is, but I can't say because they are only sent to you and a hand full of other people sorry - some non-disclosure deal I struck after too many Bourbons way back then.
 

e_dawg

Storage Freak
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Messages
1,903
Location
Toronto-ish, Canada
Heh, all WD drives here, and they are all quiet and reliable (well, not as quiet as an FDB Cuda, but no offensive whining noises). Your delivery guys really must hate you :)

Granted, my 4 year old WD153BA is rated as one of the most reliable drives ever made, according to the reliability database (96th percentile), and my WD800JB is rated in the 84th percentile. Even my WD600BB's are in the 56th percentile (using the value for the WD1200BB, as my drives uses the WD1200BB's 40 GB platters). I guess I just have this sixth sense about buying reliable WD models...

... or maybe there is some truth to the old adage about fewer moving parts equating to higher reliability. I usually buy single or dual platter drives. Not for reliability's sake, but because I just didn't need the capacity at the time, and have always preferred having a greater number of smaller capacity drives than having fewer larger capacity drives. Is it not conceivable that this behaviour has led to the greater reliability that I have experienced compared to Merc's "go big or go home" gluttony for maximal drive capacity? :)
 

e_dawg

Storage Freak
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Messages
1,903
Location
Toronto-ish, Canada
The funny thing is that I don't bother pampering my drives like many others do. You have people monitoring the temperature of their drives, using drive coolers, people with multiple fans, one or two of which are aimed at the drives in order to minimize case and drive temps. Many people also observe this silly Power On Hours recommendation about not running your IDE drives 24/7. There's also people with 450-500 W Antec and PC P&C PSU's and UPSes, hoping that a never ending amount of clean, uninterrupted power will ensure salvation. Not I.

I am running all my drives off an ancient Antec 300 W PSU that has been modified for quiet, low airflow operation (I replaced the original fan with a much slower, quieter Panaflo L1A). So, not only does it run hot and not do a good job of ventilating the case, it is also seemingly underpowered for a system with 4x 7200 rpm HD's, an overclocked Athlon 2200 running the UD agent 24/7, and a Radeon 9500 Pro. The +12 v rail which supplies most of the power to the HD and the CPU is only rated for 10 A (!)

There is also poor airflow to most of the drives, and case temps are usually in the 42-45 C range. The drives have been run 24/7 almost exclusively.
 

The JoJo

Wannabe Storage Freak
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
1,490
Location
Finland, Turku
Website
www.thejojo.com
No WD for me, simply because the wholesaler doesn't have them.

Like the people (and apes) down under, I only use Samsung these days for all IDE needs. Problem free, in all aspects. And being very quiet is a great plus for them. Oh, one more thing, they cost less than the others.

For my other needs (no, I'm talking about HD speed), X15 type of things get me excited. ;)
 

e_dawg

Storage Freak
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Messages
1,903
Location
Toronto-ish, Canada
Just noticed that my other drives are also rated very well for reliability: Quantum FB+ LM (98th percentile -- 2nd highest rated drive after the X15) and the Atlas 10k3 (75th percentile).

The lone black mark appears to be the Maxtor DM+9 (21st percentile) -- a drive which I bought on sale and has never been used yet (still sealed in the ESD). I am honestly reluctant to put it into my system.
 

Tea

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,749
Location
27a No Fixed Address, Oz.
Website
www.redhill.net.au
Actually, I've never seen the reliability survey you metion, Doggy One. The methodology is such that I can't imagine any reason why I should want to see it. (On the whole, I prefer Robert Heinlein for my science fiction needs.)
 

ddrueding

Fixture
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
19,522
Location
Horsens, Denmark
I own a whole bunch of WD drives, mainly 400BBs, 800JBs, 1200JBs, a 2500JB, and a whole lotta 360GDs...

Not a sindle failure amond them, and none have gotten loud enough for me to notice. Then again, most of these are in server enviroments. The 360GDs in my workstation are quieter than my L1A @ 7v...even after 6 months continuous use.
 

Bozo

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 12, 2002
Messages
4,396
Location
Twilight Zone
I've been buying WD drives for work over the last two-three years. Maybe 70-75 total. Only had to RMA 4. All of them 200BB models.
Mostly it's for bearing noise.

Bozo :mrgrn:
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
21,593
Location
I am omnipresent
My collection from 2003 consisted of nine WD drives, from 600ABs to 2000JB.
By the end of the year, WD had issued me 14 RMAs, eventually impacting every WD drive I owned.
 

Bozo

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 12, 2002
Messages
4,396
Location
Twilight Zone
Interesting. None of ours was over 120GB. Most were 400JBs.
Something to do with more platters on the same bearings?

Bozo :mrgrn:
 

e_dawg

Storage Freak
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Messages
1,903
Location
Toronto-ish, Canada
Tea said:
Actually, I've never seen the reliability survey you metion, Doggy One. The methodology is such that I can't imagine any reason why I should want to see it. (On the whole, I prefer Robert Heinlein for my science fiction needs.)

Now why would you say that? Remember, one man's sandpaper is another man's toilet paper :lol:

But seriously, I know what you mean. It is not even remotely definitive, especially for newer drives with fewer units reporting (< 3 years and < 30 units), but IMO, it's better than nothing. In fact, for drives that have been around a long time (say at least 3 years) and have many units reporting (> 100), I would trust the ratings to within 20 percentiles of each other -- as in, differences of over 20 percentiles are significant.

But I am curious as to what criticisms you have against the database. My thinking is this: if there is a systematic bias present in the reporting sample (usually, drive failures are over-represented), then it should affect drives from all manufacturers equally. Similarly, abuse from shipping, handling, integration, and user idiocy should be randomly distributed throughout the sample.

BBH was going on about how bad the reliability databse was, but he never bothered to explain why. Would you care to enlighten me, my simian friend?
 

Tannin

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
4,448
Location
Huon Valley, Tasmania
Website
www.redhill.net.au
It's a self-selecting sample, E_dawg. You cannot make any numerical inferences with self-selecting samples, not even a plain old average. This is a basic, non-controversial and fundamemtal rule of data analysis. To have figures that are generalisable to anything beyond the individual cases represented by the respondants to the survey themselves, you must have an appropriate sample selection method. To try to do otherwise achieves one thing only: it demonstrates your scientific incompetence beyond all doubt. It doesn't matter how much other work you do or how large your sample becomes (save only in the case where the sample size closely approaches the population size), it doesn't matter how many beautiful Powerpoint slides you draw, your original data remains meaningless, as does any conclusion you draw from it.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
21,593
Location
I am omnipresent
I seem to remember hearing something similar in Intro to Statistics.

SR's reliability database works best for anecdotal data, but I'd love to, for example, get ahold of Newegg's RMA rates for hard disks, instead.

... now that I think of it, has anyone ever asked a company like newegg for that information?
 

Tea

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,749
Location
27a No Fixed Address, Oz.
Website
www.redhill.net.au
Tannin, would you mind not answering my questions?

Ahem ....

Bozo: 4 failures out of 75 drives is not an acceptable failure rate these days. That is about 5.3% You should be getting a failure rate about ten times lower than that. Our Samsung failure rate currently stands at less than 0.3% and has been stable on or around that figure for quite some time, on a sample that is now gradually approaching 3000 drives. (7 failures within the three year warranty period, I haven't counted the total number of drives shipped lately, but over 2500, I think. I'll try to find time to check exactly sometime soon.)

A sample of 75 isn't definitive, but 4 failures is sufficient to give a reasonable indication, and your Western Digital drives are failing more than fifteen times as often as our Samsungs.

That5.3% number doesn't really surprise me, as our own WD failure rates (back before we stopped selling Seagate and Western Digital) were somewhere in-between your numbers and Mercutio's.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
21,593
Location
I am omnipresent
Bozo said:
Interesting. None of ours was over 120GB. Most were 400JBs.
Something to do with more platters on the same bearings?

My personal theory is that WD's more-or-less insistence on best-in-class (for the most part, anyway) performance has led to parts that wear out very quickly. All of my drives were running 24x7 for at least a month prior to failure.

(And, as a digression, pretty much every drive I've used for myself, in the last eight or nine years has run 24x7 for its entire life. In the case of my main file server I'd be surprised if disk idle times even accounted for 10% of power-on-hours.).

There have been rumors for a while that *AB drives run at 6000rpm rather than the advertised 5400. Indeed, they *are* the fastest 5400rpm drives available. Ordinarily I would assume that WD would engineer such drives with components designed for 7200rpm operation, but given the spectacular failure rates I've seen (I used them in a lot of customer machines for awhile as backup drives, and I've replaced quite a few of those as well), I think perhaps they literally "overclocked" 5400rpm components.

Seems to me that this would also adequately explain the drop to a 1 year warranty as well.

Or maybe I'm just paranoid.
 

Santilli

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 27, 2002
Messages
5,078
Costco is carrying Diamond Max Plus (Quaxtor) drives, 160 gig, with card and cable, for 129 bucks. Bought one for the mac, and it appears to be a good fit.

Supposed to have a 5 year warranty, and scsi like reliability.

Currently appears I'm having problems with a couple Seagate drives.

Has anyone used Seatools, Enterprise version before?

It appears to be really cool, allowing you to change settings, and test stuff you normally can't.

s
 

e_dawg

Storage Freak
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Messages
1,903
Location
Toronto-ish, Canada
Ah, yes, memories of Stats...

Tannin said:
It's a self-selecting sample [...] you must have an appropriate sample selection method. To try to do otherwise achieves one thing only: it demonstrates your scientific incompetence beyond all doubt. [...] your original data remains meaningless, as does any conclusion you draw from it.

Indeed, you are correct, but we're often presented with imperfect data collected via flawed sampling in the real world and have to make do with it, drawing tentative conclusions where we can. IMO, it's better than nothing. (blasphemy coming from the mouth of a former science major, but I have become more practical and pragmatic these days)

Yes, you want a random sample, not a self-selecting one, but that's just not going to happen with a survey on the web. Why would I allow a self-selecting sample? Let's think about why this is a theoretical no-no -- "because the participants may not be representative of the population and may be actively engaged in biasing the data" are two major issues that comes to mind.

Why would it not be representative? With large enough numbers of participants, I think we have enough owners of all flavours of drives to get a representative cross-section. Barring some kind of scandal like "WD hires child labourers and supports the Columbian drug cartels", I don't think you would get an over-representation of any particular drive or manufacturer (except, of course, IBM's 75GXP -- but we know that already). It's not like there is an SCO or a Microsoft in the survey, where people would be motivated to participate more than they normally would and answer maliciously to skew the results.

Indeed, I wouldn't trust a survey like this to produce anywhere near accurate results (which I think is what you are hung up on)... but the important point is that any biasing is likely to affect all drives from all manufacturers fairly equally. I don't care that the reliability results for all drives are off by a factor of ten as long as all drives are more or less off by a factor of ten. It's the relative differences I care about. And I think that even the SR reliabilty survey preserves enough of these differences to be able to say that the X15 (98th percentile) is more reliable than the Maxtor DM+9 (21st percentile).

If faced with a purchasing decision for two otherwise similar drives (price, capacity, performance) and i see one drive is in the high 80th percentile range and one drive is in the low 30's, I would probably lean towards the higher rated drive. That's a big enough difference that even a self-selecting sample couldn't invalidate. Now, given two drives in the same decile? Who would care?
 

CityK

Storage Freak Apprentice
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Messages
1,719
Mercutio said:
There have been rumors for a while that *AB drives run at 6000rpm rather than the advertised 5400. Indeed, they *are* the fastest 5400rpm drives available.
I'm trying to recall, but I think its IBM/Hitatchi Feature Tool that shows (and updates every couple of seconds) the drive's rpm speed ... if its not that, its one of the other dos based utilities that I haven't used in a while.

I think perhaps they literally "overclocked" 5400rpm components.
Seems to me that this would also adequately explain the drop to a 1 year warranty as well. Or maybe I'm just paranoid.
Hmm, I don't know about this one, solely for the fact that no one cares about 5400 benchmarks anymore.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
21,593
Location
I am omnipresent
Then why was WD building a 5400rpm drive that could compete with slower 7200rpm models of the same generation (e.g. Seagate, Samsung and Maxtor drives of that generation)?
 

Buck

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 22, 2002
Messages
4,514
Location
Blurry.
Website
www.hlmcompany.com
Mercutio said:
Then why was WD building a 5400rpm drive that could compete with slower 7200rpm models of the same generation (e.g. Seagate, Samsung and Maxtor drives of that generation)?

http://www.hlmcompany.com/wd-2001b.php

"Another interesting note that you'll see in future 5,400-rpm drives from WD, is that they spin faster - usually around 5,900-rpm."
 

CityK

Storage Freak Apprentice
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Messages
1,719
If this is true, my opinion of WD sinks even further....I guess its just par for the course with them though.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
21,593
Location
I am omnipresent
Has any hard disk manufacturer EVER made a general-release firmware update for a drive?

Or, assuming that such support is added, would it require a "rev. 2.0" version of the drive?
 

CityK

Storage Freak Apprentice
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Messages
1,719
There were one or two mentioned by Will in a thread on SR not too long ago.

Personally, if this is the case (that TCQ still isn't in the firmware) I hope they do a public release of the upgraded firmware....and hopefully they will be made to pay in terms of RMA support to the legions of knobs who bugger up their drives trying to gain TCQ.

< rant> the whole contention that the Raptor, both original and the new and improved (with ancient Chinese secrets added) version, was released as a entry level enterprise server drive makes me want to puke. The very place where TCQ will provide the greatest benefit and yet its missing....hmmm, seems an aweful lot like the Raptor was never targeted at the server market to begin with....seems more likely its intended audience was for kids who spend their whole time benchmarking the drive with Sandra and the lot. </rant>
 

CityK

Storage Freak Apprentice
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Messages
1,719
Yeah I suppose....its just I got a semi hate-on for WD :D
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
21,593
Location
I am omnipresent
I know of only one reasonably large-scale deployment of Raptors in an enterprise environment.
An IT manager for one of the local casinos was in my office, waiting to start a CCNP upgrade exam (the testing area is located in my, uh, suite), and we discussed, briefly, what our jobs entailed.

I mentioned my interest in storage systems, and he started talking about his attempts to get a SAN up and running, using arrays built with 10,000rpm SATA drives (which at the time meant only the 36GB Raptor), replacing several under-sized and outmoded SCSI arrays on his various systems.

It sounded like he was moving four 72GB arrays to two arrays of ~400GB apiece. He said performance was OK, a little better than the old arrays, but he mentioned specifically that his drive failure rates were abysmal, like three drives a month over a five month period. The thrust of his comments was basically "I wish I hadn't spent that money, and by the way do you know a cheap fix?"

I know, it's an anecdote from a biased source, but if that's the "enterprise SATA" experience, maybe the only folks with Raptors *are* kiddies looking for better Sandra scores.
 

sechs

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 1, 2003
Messages
4,709
Location
Left Coast
Raptors were *supposed* to be aimed at low-end enterprise uses. I can't see how Western Digital will be able to support a five-year warranty at its current pricing.
 

e_dawg

Storage Freak
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Messages
1,903
Location
Toronto-ish, Canada
Mercutio said:
... but he mentioned specifically that his drive failure rates were abysmal, like three drives a month over a five month period.

Hmm, what does the SR Drive Reliability survey have to say about the Raptors? 27th percentile (n=167). Aha! It told us so :mrgrn:

Aw, isn't it fun to give ol' Tannin a poke? Huh? What's that you say old man? Something about a stopped clock being right twice a day? ;)
 

GIANT

Learning Storage Performance
Joined
Apr 8, 2002
Messages
234
Location
Highway To Hell
Mercutio said:
...I know, it's an anecdote from a biased source, but if that's the "enterprise SATA" experience, maybe the only folks with Raptors *are* kiddies looking for better Sandra scores.

The guy would be a lot better off with arrays based on SATA Maxtor MaxLine II drives -- like a pair of such arrays with one running as failover on the SAN.
 
Top