Clean power
- Thread starter Bozo
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ddrueding
Fixture
I was just reading about that. I would want to hear why this company failed to build it in Australia (which was their first pick, for many years) from someone besides the company founder. I do like the concept, and would love to check out the view from the top.
ddrueding
Fixture
They are arguing that this would continue to produce power through most of the night, considering the latent heat stored in the desert floor, and the considerably lower temperature at high altitude regardless of surface temperature.
time
Storage? I am Storage!
Wikipedia said:
The GizMag article cites a radius of several hundred metres and an 800-metre-high tower, so the area is at least 20 times too small. That's backed up by the relatively low (50kW) output from the smaller Spain prototype in the 1980's.
ddrueding
Fixture
Not saying that it isn't bullshit, but all the numbers are massively theoretical until one is built. My intuition is that power output will be massively nonlinear with regard to size, due to the many metrics that scale in a complimentary fashion.
time
Storage? I am Storage!
The Chinese are building one about the same size or slightly bigger, which they expect to produce about 27MW, not 200MW. They have already built a proof-of-concept unit that is the current record holder with 200kW.
This, and another project in Namibia, are hoping to harvest about 10W/m²; the modeling referred to earlier assumes 5W/m². The Arizona project works out closer to 100W/m². :roll:
Australia also gave birth to another entrepreneur who convinced lots of people to invest in a 'pill' called "FirePower" that purported to improve fuel consumption by some staggering amount when you added it to a car's fuel tank. Their slogan was "put your car on the pill".
The guy was recently banned from being involved in the management of a company for 20 years. Just goes to show, never trust Australians.
This, and another project in Namibia, are hoping to harvest about 10W/m²; the modeling referred to earlier assumes 5W/m². The Arizona project works out closer to 100W/m². :roll:
Australia also gave birth to another entrepreneur who convinced lots of people to invest in a 'pill' called "FirePower" that purported to improve fuel consumption by some staggering amount when you added it to a car's fuel tank. Their slogan was "put your car on the pill".
The guy was recently banned from being involved in the management of a company for 20 years. Just goes to show, never trust Australians.
jtr1962
Storage? I am Storage!
Well, that still makes it theoretically possible. I think the average amount of sunlight in Arizona over a 24 hour span is in the 300 to 400 W/m² range. If this plant can harvest sunlight with a 25% to 33% efficiency, it will work as advertised. The best solar cells (in the lab) could actually do that. Certainly it is also possible to obtain this efficiency using solar collectors and turbines. As Dave says, I suspect efficiency scales up with size here.
time
Storage? I am Storage!
I'm not sure you read my post all that well?
The Chinese lead the world in that a) they have already built a decently sized one (about 600m across) and b) their projections for one of comparable SIZE are about 1/10th that of this charlatan's.
Efficiency - i.e. the percentage of solar energy converted to usable energy - will never be anywhere near that of photovoltaic cells. The system relies on energy absorbed by the ground (and any vegetation) warming the air above it through conduction - air doesn't absorb significant amounts of radiant heat.
The Chinese lead the world in that a) they have already built a decently sized one (about 600m across) and b) their projections for one of comparable SIZE are about 1/10th that of this charlatan's.
Efficiency - i.e. the percentage of solar energy converted to usable energy - will never be anywhere near that of photovoltaic cells. The system relies on energy absorbed by the ground (and any vegetation) warming the air above it through conduction - air doesn't absorb significant amounts of radiant heat.
ddrueding
Fixture
time, I agree that their power figures seem considerably high. I assume you were following this more closely while they were trying to build it there? Do you have any links to the Chinese version?
Even if the power figure is considerably lower, if the longevity were good enough, it would certainly have a small environmental footprint.
Even if the power figure is considerably lower, if the longevity were good enough, it would certainly have a small environmental footprint.
ddrueding
Fixture
The size isn't particularly relevant; there is plenty of unused space in the world. The cost to build, the cost to maintain, and the amount of power it generates are the important figures, IMHO.
jtr1962
Storage? I am Storage!
I did read your post. All I said was it was theoretically possible, in that no laws of physics are being violated by the claimed output of 200 MW, nor do working efficiencies need to be some totally unrealistically high value such as 75% or 95%. If the efficiency is only a few percent, as the figures you gave suggest, then this idea doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Maybe they found ways to increase the efficiency dramatically here, or perhaps efficiency increases enormously in the climate typical of Arizona relative to that in China? Or maybe somebody just forget to carry a decimal place? If this attracts enough investors to actually get built, then I'll assume the engineering behind it has been thoroughly scrutinized, and is sound. I personally think photovoltaic cells, coupled with some type of storage system, would make more sense here than trying to build a huge tower in the middle of nowhere.
When a 200 MW plant requires a 7 kilometer diameter collector size is a very big concern imo. At that rate I doubt there's enough open space in America to meet the countries current power demands! Not only that but the windmills here in the States are eye sore enough when they cover a hill top. I can't imagine how ugly these monstrosities covering the country side would be.
ddrueding
Fixture
I actually like the windmills 
Though I understand the offshore kind generate more power anyway.
Though I understand the offshore kind generate more power anyway.That is WAY too much area for the power plant. How do we know that the land will not have other value later, not to mention messing up the environment in large chunks?
That con artist dude uses the word useless to describe the land. Perhaps he is the useless one.
That con artist dude uses the word useless to describe the land. Perhaps he is the useless one.
ddrueding
Fixture
I'd like to see one built, just so I could see it. Maybe get a view from the top.
That is WAY too much area for the power plant. How do we know that the land will not have other value later, not to mention messing up the environment in large chunks?
That con artist dude uses the word useless to describe the land. Perhaps he is the useless one.
Why, do you expect desert-land to be put to better use to make something like another Las Vegas?