Storage Forum New York City Tour Guide

[jtr1962]

OK, it's official. I'm now Storage Forum's New York City tour guide(an unofficial title I have bestowed upon myself), and I'll explain how this came to be.

Several months ago Cliptin e-mailed me and expressed a desire to see NYC for himself. I offered my opinions on some things of personal interest besides the usual tourist traps since I think anyone visiting a place should get a good perspective on it, not just the narrow-minded view that visiting only tourist spots brings. Several e-mails later, he was able to set aside a week to tour the city, and we spent the better part of a day together seeing some sights of interest. Initially, we hadn't planned to meet personally, but he suggested it and I thought it was a good idea as well. I enjoyed his company and I was quite happy with the way things turned out other than a slight transportation-induced fiasco likely caused by weekend/holiday subway track work.

First, he took the 7 train to downtown Flushing(i.e. Chinatown II). I gave him the grand tour, and we had a bite to eat. Afterwards, we hopped the subway to Ground Zero, and spent several hours touring the general area(yes, it can take that long due to all the little things of interest in the most unlikely places, and it changes every time I come). I then showed him Battery Park where the Sphere sculpture(officially called Commerce Through Peace, actually) is temporarily on loan, and we had a rather bizarre hour-long dissertation from a man who apparently knew every fact about the Twin Towers. This encounter was very interesting, informative, unexpected, and very New York. You just never knew who you'll bump into randomly walking around.

Afterwards, we walked to Chinatown to get a bite to eat(more for him than me since I was still full from my late lunch), toured around a bit more, and then decided to call it a night around 10. This was when the subway fiasco began. We boarded the E train at Canal St., and he had to transfer to the downtown #5 at 53rd and Lexington. The E-train was actually fine to get me most of the way home, but I went with him to make the transfer because the station is rather cavernous and poorly marked. As you would know it, the downtown #5 wasn't making all stops(i.e. it wasn't stopping at that station), so we went uptown to 86th with the intention of crossing over and taking the #6 express back downtown. Of course, as luck would have it, the 86th station didn't have a cross-over so it was either exit and re-enter on the other side(at the cost of a fare) or wait maybe 15 minutes for the next train and cross-over at 125 Street. I did the latter, he did the former since he had an all-day subway pass, and as of this writing I assume he got to his destination OK within perhaps half an hour. As for myself, without going into more boring details, a series of delays and late night subway operations meant that I didn't get home until 2 hours later. I didn't care too much since aimlessly riding the subways is an occasional pastime of mine, I just wasn't in the mood to do it at 11 PM that particular day.

I'm sure we'll both fill you in on more details as this thread develops, but my reason for writing this is to extend an open invitation to everyone at SF to come and visit New York. If you like, and if it fits both our schedules, I can even give personal tours. :). I've gotten certain impressions of the people here from their posts, and it's really interesting to see how the real person differs from the online persona. Perhaps some day, I can even return the favor and visit some of the people who come here. So come one, come all, bring your friends, girlfriends, wives, kids, whoever. The more the merrier, and I personally think the city is at it's best during the Christmas holidays. :mrgrn:

[Mercutio]

I'd ask for advice prior to travel in your neighborhood, but truthfully I'm not much of a face to face sort of person, jtr. Like Faust before Mephistopheles, I'd rather learn from books than learn from living.

Other than the single branch of the Smithsonian I've never visited I don't think there's much in NYC that holds my interest. The Met, I suppose.

Truth is, I live 40 miles from another world-class city and I only visit the one so close to me a couple times a year. Usually someone else's idea, too. Working doesn't count, of course.

Is "Ground Zero" as maudlin as I think it must be?

Perhaps our tourguide should be a travel agent and promoter as well.

[jtr1962]

Mercutio, I definitely understand where you're coming from. I'm a self-described introvert myself(with new people, anyway), so I was initially a bit hesitant about the whole thing of meeting Cliptin face-to-face, but it worked out OK. If it didn't, I would just have added it to the long list of things that didn't quite work out in my life. I personally prefer learning through books and discussion boards like this one. I really don't like talking on the phone much for some reason. I just seems rather impersonal, and there's only so much you can get across verbally as opposed to in writing, or face-to-face. And one thing I would never do would be to go on a blind date. I can't think of anything more awkward than being stuck with someone for a few hours if it turns out that they're not your type, so I would never put myself in that situation.

I know exactly what you mean about living near Chicago since I'm in a similar position. Truth be told, I've only traveled to a handful of states, and went to Canada once(when I was 11) for the simple reason that NYC has just about everything that I find of interest. I'm sure I'd like Chicago if I ever actually got around to doing some traveling, but that's not in the cards for the near future. I like one-day local excursions, but I'm not that thrilled about living out of a suitcase, so it'll likely be a while, if ever, before I do any serious traveling.

Regarding Ground Zero, you still see signs everywhere of what went on. It hit home for Cliptin when he saw a makeshift triage sign spray painted on a wall. There are also pictures of dead people everywhere, and you occasionally here some rather unsettling stories. The man we met in Battery Park was talking about how one of his co-workers was cut to shreds while he was manually shutting down the elevators. A friend of one of my mother's friends decided to go down while one of his co-workers went back up. He later found out that they found one of her hands in the rubble. So it's not a tourist spot like Disneyland, but people feel a need to come either out of morbid curiosity, or perhaps because it makes them feel more connected to the whole thing.

[Prof.Wizard]

I'm now Storage Forum's New York City tour guide(an unofficial title I have bestowed upon myself)...
Cool man. Way to go! :wink:

[flagreen]

Good Man jtr1962.

I don't know if I'll ever take you up on it but it's damned decent of you to offer.

[Midnight Cowboy flashback] How did a country bumpkin from Tennessee like Clipton make out in the big city? [/Midnight Cowboy flashback]. :)

[CougTek]

A friend of one of my mother's friends decided to go down while one of his co-workers went back up. He later found out that they found one of her hands in the rubble.Cool, can we bring back this sort of souvenirs if we find one?[/jk]

They are supposed to start to resconstruct the first building that'll fill the empty space left by the Towers soon. The site must be almost clear by now, isn't it? Is there still the nasty odor there was after the attack?

[James]

Well, as mentioned before I'm going to Boca Raton FL at the end of next month (June) for the annual sales conference.* I think I owe Bill a bottle of nice wine or somesuch for his efforts with the TiVo, and I might hook up with Eugene if he's nearby.

And if anyone's coming to Sydney, we'd be very happy to put you up (two spare beds!) and give you the unofficial tour. Sharon's really not that bad, despite the fact that computer storage doesn't really interest her. ;)

I still think a get-together in (say) Melbourne for the several Aussies is a good idea. I realise that I'm the one organising it, so I should get my crap together and do something about it. I know Jake, Tony (et al) and Pradeep expressed some interest when I raised it about 9 months ago (okay, okay, going to Japan for three months stuffed up my timetables).

* Due to the general downturn we didn't get a conference last year; it was supposed to be in Malta. I'm sad we didn't go, I've always been fascinated by Malta and the Knights of St John - great story! The year prior we went to Kota Kinabalu in Malaysia (on the island of Borneo) which was terrific and sort of depressing at the same time.

[jtr1962]

They are supposed to start to resconstruct the first building that'll fill the empty space left by the Towers soon. The site must be almost clear by now, isn't it? Is there still the nasty odor there was after the attack?

Actually, that's WTC 7 you're referring to, and it's on the block next to the main site. I think they're going to start rebuilding within a year, and it's scheduled to be finished by 2005.

The main site is just about clear(the last standing beam of WTC1 is going to be removed in a ceremony on May 30). The first order of business will then be rebuilding the subway tunnels, and this was already started a few weeks ago. As for what will eventually be built there, who knows? I just hope it is not the awful idea of 4 55-story buildings.

The odor you're referring to lasted for a few months after the attacks, basically until the last fires were put out. It was a rather acrid combination of burning fuel, plastic office furniture, and flesh, so you can imagine the atmosphere down there. I first went two weeks after the fact. Besides the odor, many stores were closed and filled with several inches of dust, all of the nearby buildings were covered in ash as high as twenty stories, and nearly all the windows of nearby buildings facing the site were blown out. What was left of the towers was clearly visible, as were the burned out hulks of WTC 4, 5, and 6. Combined with the presence of the soldiers and National Guard, it was like a scene straight out of a disaster movie. There was also the indescribable feeling of impending doom being there at that time, which thankfully has subsided. I'm now able to look at the whole thing in a much more objective fashion than 6 months ago.

[jtr1962]

And if anyone's coming to Sydney, we'd be very happy to put you up (two spare beds!) and give you the unofficial tour. Sharon's really not that bad, despite the fact that computer storage doesn't really interest her. ;)


Sounds good, although as I mentioned above I don't know when I'll get around to doing some serious traveling. I'll definitely take you up on it should I go to Sydney, however. :)

P.S. I really wish I could offer people coming here some spare beds, especially with New York hotels being as expensive as they are, but as I currently live with my parents, that's not really up to me.

[Jake the Dog]

i just had my trip to rochester cancelled (no o/s travel in q3) so i miss out on the opportunity to take you up on your offer jtr :(


james, i'm still keen to get togther with everyone. if you give me a few months i'd be happy to organise it. just a but busy atm. one of these days i'm going to take the car for a nice long drive and pop in and see tony. of course i won't fess up as to whom i am for a while :P who knows, maybe i will buy a V40 (or V60 if tony has them) and become a customer anyway.

[CougTek]

I might visit old Bill someday. Take him for a ride in a park and push his wheelchair ;-)

But for the next two or three years, trips aren't part of my agenda.

[Buck]

i just had my trip to rochester cancelled (no o/s travel in q3) so i miss out on the opportunity to take you up on your offer jtr :(


james, i'm still keen to get togther with everyone. if you give me a few months i'd be happy to organise it. just a but busy atm. one of these days i'm going to take the car for a nice long drive and pop in and see tony. of course i won't fess up as to whom i am for a while :P who knows, maybe i will buy a V40 (or V60 if tony has them) and become a customer anyway.

Hehehe, yeah, stop by Redhill and cause a ruckus in the store. Although, you probably won't find Tony at the store, just Kristi.

[Mercutio]

I guess we 'mericans wouldn't be able to get away with anything like that, were we to make the trip. Oz is a place I would visit, if for no other reason than to prove to myself that it isn't really like all those damn "Crocodile Dundee" movies.

On SR a few days ago, Tannin mentioned that, when he's depressed, he thinks Oz is a "second rate" knock-off of the US. I hope it's not that bad. I'm thinking it's more like a knock-off of Canada, if Canada were populated by a majority of jocks.

At least, better that that Tannin's notion.

[jtr1962]

Good Man jtr1962.
[Midnight Cowboy flashback] How did a country bumpkin from Tennessee like Clipton make out in the big city? [/Midnight Cowboy flashback]. :)

Funny you should ask. :lol:

Actually, I thought he was getting along quite well. He even said he was able to get around better by subway than above ground. Of course, he and his family still need to dress the part(i.e. wear black, the unofficial New York City color, and no, it has nothing to do with mourning about the WTC disaster-people have been wearing black here ever since I could remember).

I sure he'll fill you in on more details when he gets back home later this week or next week.

[Jake the Dog]

On SR a few days ago, Tannin mentioned that, when he's depressed, he thinks Oz is a "second rate" knock-off of the US. I hope it's not that bad. I'm thinking it's more like a knock-off of Canada, if Canada were populated by a majority of jocks.

At least, better that that Tannin's notion.


tannin is 100% wrong. tannin in evil. shame on tannin.

[CougTek]

. I'm thinking it's more like a knock-off of Canada, if Canada were populated by a majority of jocks.

Could you please tell me what "jocks" means? I won't take it personal BTW, I'm not Canadian.


(i.e. wear black, the unofficial New York City color, and no, it has nothing to do with mourning about the WTC disaster-people have been wearing black here ever since I could remember)
I would probably feel more like home in New York than here then. It means I have looked like a New Yorker for the past several years without even knowing. Do New Yorkers wear steel cap boots all the time and leather coats too? Just wondering.

[i]

You're not Canadian?

[Mercutio]

From dictionary.com:

jock2 Pronunciation Key (jk)
n.
An athletic supporter.
Sports. An athlete, especially in college.
Slang. One characterized by excessive concern for machismo.

[Short for jockstrap.]
--
I meant it in the last sense. Personally I'm not too fond of that type of individual.

[CougTek]

You're not Canadian?
My ancestors were from French (long, long ago) and Scottish (relatively recent) origins. I have nothing in common with the British-loving Loyalists that have been kicked out North by the Americans more than centuries ago and who have become what the rest of the world associates to "Canadians".

[jtr1962]

I guess we 'mericans wouldn't be able to get away with anything like that, were we to make the trip. Oz is a place I would visit, if for no other reason than to prove to myself that it isn't really like all those damn "Crocodile Dundee" movies.


I don't know about you, but I've always visualized Tannin looking like Crocodile Dundee. :lol: I know that's probably 100% inaccurate(just the product of my overactive imagination). As for what Oz would look like, I've always thought of either the "Mad Max" movies, or what I saw of it on TV during the last summer Olympics. I'm sure that impression isn't 100% accurate, either. :)

Hopefully, I'll see for myself one day.

[jtr1962]

I would probably feel more like home in New York than here then. It means I have looked like a New Yorker for the past several years without even knowing. Do New Yorkers wear steel cap boots all the time and leather coats too? Just wondering.


Leather is fairly popular among the under 30 crowd, but I'm not sure about the steel cap boots. I just never notice what people are wearing on their feet for some reason. If black is your color, you'll fit right in, especially in the Asian sections of the city(Chinatown and Flushing), which is where I usually hang out.

BTW, Montreal is the only city outside the United States that I visited. It was a nice city when I went there in 1973. How is it these days? Maybe I'll come up again sometime since it's just a few hours by either road or rail.

[i]

My ancestors were from French (long, long ago) and Scottish (relatively recent) origins. I have nothing in common with the British-loving Loyalists that have been kicked out North by the Americans more than centuries ago and who have become what the rest of the world associates to "Canadians".

But you live in the country called Canada though, right? Were you born there?

[i]

I don't know about you, but I've always visualized Tannin looking like Crocodile Dundee. :lol: I know that's probably 100% inaccurate(just the product of my overactive imagination). As for what Oz would look like, I've always thought of either the "Mad Max" movies, or what I saw of it on TV during the last summer Olympics. I'm sure that impression isn't 100% accurate, either. :)



Heehee. I'd guess most Americans think of Paul Hogan when someone mentions Australia. If you find someone especially bright, they'll add, "oh yeah ... and Nicole Kidman." Or maybe, "hey ... isn't Mel Gibson from Australia too?"

Personally, my image of Australia includes a lot of semi-desert land, and more recently, hundreds of types of poisonous insects. :wink:

Oh wait ... don't they have a lot of sheep in Australia too? Do they roam the streets? If so, what do you do about them Tannin? Do they make a mess in the shop? :wink:

[Tea]

jtr1962 said: I just never notice what people are wearing on their feet for some reason."

You should ask DB. He's an expert.

[CougTek]

But you live in the country called Canada though, right? Were you born there?
I'm born in Québec, which isn't in the Canadian constitution since 1982 (or was it 1981, I never remember). Although not officially a country, Québec is also not really Canada either. Of course, I'm born well before 1981 when both Québec and Canada shared a common constitution, but no matter what I look that is "canadian" (people, flag, RCMP, beaver), I don't feel I'm concern/related to it.

Canada has always been a forced wedding between two people who were not made to live together. It's more than time to do a divorce. The same is true for Scotland and England IMO. But that's a whole different story.

[Prof.Wizard]

[quote=i]Although not officially a country, Québec is also not really Canada either.
For me you're all Frenchies... :P

[CougTek]

Canadians aren't Frenchies. If you dare to speak French in Canada, people will, most of the time, either ignore you or answer in English, even if they understood what you said. But they expect you to talk to them in English IN Québec though, a behavior that makes me see red, turns my skin to green and pumps me so much that my clothes tears up.

[Prof.Wizard]

Wait a sec... isn't Québec the French-speaking part of Canada? Well, not 100% but at least almost everyone is bilingual and the region's history is culturally tied with France.

I, from the other hand, get angry with all these kinds of situation. Oh please don't get me wrong... I don't say that Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Catalunya, Pais Basque, Padania (Northern Italy), or every other "forced married" region on this earth is rightly occupied... but since you're part of a group, either you want it either not, you have to cooperate...

I like Federalism. For example, I like how the German Länder and Spain's Comunidades Autónomas function...

Spain's example?
That's why Catalunya (Barcelona's region) thrives!
That's why Pais Basque will never become independent...

Conserve your language. Conserve your culture. Conserve your customs. But since all fronts are falling are falling, just bear with it.

VV Toronto! :P

[CougTek]

but since you're part of a group, either you want it either not, you have to cooperate...
Did I read you have to? I don't have to do anything for Canada and Canadians. As for cooperation, fine, but they better be very humble and very polite with me when they are on my land.


I like Federalism.
Yeah, you like Microsoft too.


Conserve your language. Conserve your culture. Conserve your customs. But since all fronts are falling are falling, just bear with it.
Bear with it? Bear Canadians? Bear Canadians telling me how to run MY business in MY country? NEVER! As for keeping our customs and our language, well that's the main reason behind separatism. Every attempt to make them understand that we need special rights to control our culture has failed so far. It doesn't seem to get into their heads that it's a lot harder to preserve a culture when you're just 6 million French-speaking people surrounded by 300 million of English than it is for other parts of their so-called Canada. I don't really put the blame on the back of Canadians, I blame the bunch of stuck imbeciles who lead them for it (canadian politicians, in which I include the betrayers like Chrétien/Trudeau who shit on our heads as much as the blokes). Since words cannot convince them, the next step would be to try our middle finger and get rid of their intrusion in our bunisesses (where they have nothing to do, despite what they seem to think).

I'm a lot more at ease with Aussies and Americans than I'll ever be with Canadians.

Anyway, it's a vain discussion.

[Prof.Wizard]

Yeah, you like Microsoft too.
OT, untrue, but... whatever!

Anyway, it's a vain discussion.
I know. Since you have Canadian passport...

-------------
Federalism has worked in many parts of Europe... I don't see why it can't work in Canada. However you gave me an insight I wasn't aware of....

[CougTek]

I know. Since you have Canadian passport...
You know what? I don't have any passport. I don't even need one to go to United States either.



Federalism has worked in many parts of Europe... I don't see why it can't work in Canada. However you gave me an insight I wasn't aware of....
Here's another insight : U.K. AFAIK refuses to share a common currency with the rest of Europe. U.K. doesn't want to have their currency controlled by anyone else than themselve and especially not by France. I'm not sure, but I don't think U.K. is/wants to be part of E.U.

If you Europeans can't find out how to agree with the British (and contrarily to us, you outnumber them on your side of the Atlantic), what makes you think that we should/could with their american relatives? With them, it's always their way or no way. That's fine with me, as long as they let us do the same.

[Tannin]

How on earth can you expect the English to want to become a part of Europe? Good Lord, old chap, don't you realize the place is full of foreigners?

[Prof.Wizard]

You know what? I don't have any passport. I don't even need one to go to United States either.
Yeah, but that's how far you can go pal.



Here's another insight : U.K. AFAIK refuses to share a common currency with the rest of Europe. U.K. doesn't want to have their currency controlled by anyone else than themselve and especially not by France. I'm not sure, but I don't think U.K. is/wants to be part of E.U.
LOL. I don't blame you. You don't know the latest developments. Now most British want the monetary union and most (open-minded) already blame their goverment of NOT accepting the Euro.


If you Europeans can't find out how to agree with the British (and contrarily to us, you outnumber them on your side of the Atlantic), what makes you think that we should/could with their american relatives? With them, it's always their way or no way. That's fine with me, as long as they let us do the same.
You know this is exactly the problem with the British. They sometimes step on earth and believe they're doing her a favor. They think all the rest of the world is driving on the wrong side... and stuff like that, you get the picture!
You are right. It's a matter of power and who's on the steering wheel of the EU. However, the UK has already lost even if they don't accept it. The game is between France and Germany. UK might compete with Italy if it wants... (LOL, watch out for Spain... it's coming fast from behind!)
Britain has been accused many times by us, the rest of the EU, of NOT being 100% heart and soul European. Of course, Britain (the last empire!) needs a special treating, but they have to decide on which part of the Atlantic they are.

Coug, I'll contact a friend of mine (French... er, Quebecean from your city) on ICQ and ask him his point of view.

BTW, I didn't know that the Commonwealth was creating such major problems. Tannin, can you explain me why on earth a couple of years ago you voted to maintain the Queen's head on your currency?! :-?

[Tannin]

But Prof, the rest of the world is driving on the wrong side.

[i]

I'm American. I decided (unwisely) to go to university up in Canada. I say unwisely because my decision was founded primarily on the notion that it was the furthest I could afford to get away from my parents at the time. :wink: What happened of course was that I wound up with a heck of a lot of debt anyway, and a degree that generally does less for me back here than something from an American college would have. Anyway...

While I was there, a number of people offered their viewpoint about Quebec. Many immediately complained that every year Quebec accepts a truckload (yes I know, a technical term) of cash from the federal government - what's called a transfer payment; an attempt at redistributing federal tax dollars from provinces that are doing well, to those are not doing so well. The only part of Canada that gets a larger payment than Quebec is eastern Canada (so the story went anyway). What they complained about this Quebec "sovereignty" plan was that Quebec essentially wanted to become its own country, but still be associated enough with Canada to accept cash from the Canadian government. I don't know what the details were supposed to be, but they seemed to have a problem with that.


Bear with it? Bear Canadians? Bear Canadians telling me how to run MY business in MY country? NEVER! As for keeping our customs and our language, well that's the main reason behind separatism. Every attempt to make them understand that we need special rights to control our culture has failed so far.

Umm ... I was in Ontario in what, 1995? The year that Quebec held a referendum to decide whether to separate or not. It was a close vote, but Quebec voted against separation. Against! Even admitting it was a close vote, it would mean that 50% of your neighbors voted to stay in Canada.

The only personal comment I can add to any of this is that I balk at that "your" country / "my" country stuff. It's land. It's been inhabited by people from different cultures for thousands of years. You remember the native Americans, right? Whether you believe they came from Asia or Europe (or both), they arrived here in North America waaaay before most of us did. Don't they get any recognition? Isn't much of northern Quebec mostly populated by native peoples, even today? I'll bet they'd like to separate too.


It doesn't seem to get into their heads that it's a lot harder to preserve a culture when you're just 6 million French-speaking people surrounded by 300 million of English than it is for other parts of their so-called Canada. I don't really put the blame on the back of Canadians, I blame the bunch of stuck imbeciles who lead them for it (canadian politicians, in which I include the betrayers like Chrétien/Trudeau who shit on our heads as much as the blokes). Since words cannot convince them, the next step would be to try our middle finger and get rid of their intrusion in our bunisesses (where they have nothing to do, despite what they seem to think).

I also remember the speech from that Parizeau (sp?) guy after the referendum failed. The problem is the "ethnics" in Quebec. Nice! I can't believe he said that on national TV.

And as for this English vs. French argument that keeps coming up, it always makes me laugh. Languages change. Cultures change. Cougtek, look at me here in North Carolina! There are more and more days when I think to myself that I need to learn Spanish!

Closer to home, have you been to Toronto? I have ... and in some places it seems as though English and French are totally irrelevant! Same goes for Banff out in Alberta (is it Alberta? I've never been there but a friend went, and he had frequent opportunity to practice his Japanese while he was there!)

The admittedly few people I ever talked to from Quebec about all this, usually just rolled their eyes when I brought up the subject. A few spoke more French than I could interpret. Actually, come to think of it, maybe that was their point. Anyway, thanks for trying Coug, but I don't think I'll ever figure Canada out.

[flagreen]

Actually there are no "native" people in the Americas. Those referred to as "native" migrated from Asia during the last ice age. IMO they have no more claim to any land, nor right to any special privileges than any one else living in the Americas today.

[Tannin]

Quite so, Flagreen. I have made the same point, translated to our shores and at great and boring length, several times before.

[Prof.Wizard]

Actually after all these population movements of the last 4-5 centuries (especially the last!) it's really hard to say who's native or not...

Do you really know who was banging your grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-mother?
You may even have 1/32 Iraqi* genes without even knowing it... :o


*insert here the disturbing population you WOULDN'T want to be part of...

[Prof.Wizard]

You know what? I don't have any passport. I don't even need one to go to United States either.
Come to think of it... why don't we all give up our national passports and use only our Microsoft .NET ones?! :roll:

Do-oh!

[i]

Actually there are no "native" people in the Americas. Those referred to as "native" migrated from Asia during the last ice age. IMO they have no more claim to any land, nor right to any special privileges than any one else living in the Americas today.

That was my point, Flagreen!

No one has any right to any special privileges than anyone else living in the Americas today.

[Mercutio]

<smack>

And yes, with an aunt as interested in Geneology as mine, I can find out who was banging my many-times great grandmother. The simple answer is my many-times great-grandfather. :)

But seriously, if you're into that sort of thing, there are more geneological resources online that one can shake a stick at.

(My personal heritage is that both sides of my family have been in the US since the early - mid 18th century, previous to that my familial heritage is German/Bavarian and Anglo. My girlfriend, sorta, is of german-irish descent. So no evil Iraqi or Greek <j/k> blood in me.)

[Rocco Siffredi]

But Prof, the rest of the world is driving on the wrong side.

Thats true... everyone had their horses on the left before that prat named Napoleon came and changed everything with his left-handedness... With 100 countries or so still driving on the left, it will still take some centuries to get rid of it if ever...
[/quote]

[Buck]

German/Bavarian

Please make sure you keep those separate! :D

[Mercutio]

I did, didn't I? I could've said "German", although at the time my ancestors left Bavaria it was still its own country. My family had some kind of titular ranking (Graf?) in Bavaria. I don't know much about it.

[James]

I too was in Canada for the referendum. It was a pretty close run thing, but I completely agree that it showed that at least half the people in Quebec don't want to leave Canada.

I'm afraid I don't see how Quebec would survive financially as a nation without assistance - particularly once the car industry left. Surely you can keep your culture and language, and still remain part of Canada?

It's also strange how many Quebecois continue to call themselves "French" - you're either Quebecois or Canadian, you're certainly not French. Plus the French have great difficulty understanding Quebecois French anyway, even though the languages have only been seperated for a fairly short time. You have your own culture and language - by all means celebrate that. But it's silly to think that you need to seperate from the rest of Canada in order to maintain your identity. Quebecois certainly aren't the only people in Canada who feel that the government isn't taking care of their special needs - try visiting Newfoundland (or any of Eastern Canada) sometime!

[CougTek]

I too was in Canada for the referendum. It was a pretty close run thing, but I completely agree that it showed that at least half the people in Quebec don't want to leave Canada.
A lot of people don't have a clue about politics. I know a bunch of them. That's especially true for the elders. Back in their time, the priests were the ones who told them how to vote (the sky is blue, the hell is red - these were the colors of the two main political parties before 1960). Others are simply not interested. You know, even if I think that Québec is a damn good place to live, we still have our fair share of imbeciles. Like every other places of the world.


I'm afraid I don't see how Quebec would survive financially as a nation without assistance - particularly once the car industry left.
You talk like if you believe we live on the back of the rest of Canada. It's totally wrong. If we would cost them all that much, why would they beg us to stay. Yes, you read it correctly : BEG. The amount of (wasted) money the federal government spends in pro-Canada advertisement is ridiculous. Don't take what you heard in the english-speaking media for cash, James.

Besides, FYI, 95% of the canadian car industry is in Ontario. The only car manufacturer that still is in Québec is GM at Boisbriand and they give us practically 0$ because of the special consessions our government gave them the last time they treaten to leave. Their plan is supposed to stop all activities this year. Big deal. Car industry is a drop in the ocean for our economy. We have many other ressources. Don't worry, we would do just fine without the english trying to control (screw) everything in our economy. And since the mid-90s, Québec gives more money to the federal than it receives in return (like most other provinces too because the fed. gov. refuses to share fairly and they use too much of that money in order to cut their overweighted debt, they get all the credit for it too). Nonetheless, we have managed to post positive figures for the last three years anyway. But that's probably just luck to your eyes, we obliously don't know how to count, don't we?


But it's silly to think that you need to seperate from the rest of Canada in order to maintain your identity. Quebecois certainly aren't the only people in Canada who feel that the government isn't taking care of their special needs - try visiting Newfoundland (or any of Eastern Canada) sometime!
So a few years in the West and you have all figure it out huh? The truth is that there have been endless negociations between our gov. and their gov. to reach an agreement that would let us gain more control on our destiny (not just culture) in the past 20 years, to no avail. Last time I remember, (Lake Meech proposal), our rebel and barbaric government (that's how you see us, isn't it?) was ready to re-enter in the canadian constitution and 8 provinces with the federal government. But two provinces rejected the deal (Manitoba and Newfy land). Blame us again if you wish. IMO, we have done our fair share of effort, but when the other side is stuck, it's time to pass to something else.

BTW, I don't give a shit of the issues that some provinces might have with the federal government. That's their problem, not our. If they agree to live with it, fine for them, but it doesn't mean that we have to bend as low as they do just to be part of their so-beloved Canada. Modern Canada is almost entirely controlled by Ontario and most major politics are made to benefit them at the expense of the others. That's a whole different story though, in which I would prefer not to dive.

In fact, I would rather stop this discussion right here (at least on everything related to Québec). The reason of that additional post from myself in this thread was only to correct points on which I radically disagree. I know it won't change anything in the way you think, but I somehow had to add the above anyway. I believe you would feel the same if I would say things about your country on which you wouldn't agree. And I'm very tired too so some parts of this reply might sound a bit agressive, but I'm just not in the mood to re-write it to make it look softer. I'll leave raw as it went out.

[Prof.Wizard]

I did, didn't I? I could've said "German", although at the time my ancestors left Bavaria it was still its own country. My family had some kind of titular ranking (Graf?) in Bavaria. I don't know much about it.
OMG!
Von Mercutio that is? :bow:

LOL, one day you're gonna return in Germany and discover your long lost legacy... A castle in the Bavarian countryside and scores of €s in Swiss acounts... and a family photo with Hitler... :o
Mwahahaha...

(anyway, I believe today's Bavaria hasn't got so many differences with today's Germany... it's not like Québec-Canada)

[Prof.Wizard]

everyone had their horses on the left before that prat named Napoleon came and changed everything with his left-handedness...
Hmm, looking out of my window I fail to see any horses... :-? Thus: no horses, no problem.


With 100 countries or so still driving on the left, it will still take some centuries to get rid of it if ever...
Keep trying! :wink:

I'm not looking into how it changed. But it changed... bear with it...
(Anyway, trains and trams still go on the left here in Rome.)

[Rocco Siffredi]

Why don't you guys bear with it and change back to how it used to be, huh? :mrgrn:

http://www.travel-library.com/general/driving/drive_which_side.html
http://www.pielkenrood.myweb.nl/x/rile.htm

[Prof.Wizard]

Since the dominant hemisphere of the brain for motor control is the left, I prefer to drive on the right side (steering wheel left)...
This gives me much better control for my right hand which changes frequently the gears... :wink:

[me]

I drive wherever the hell I want to. Straight down the middle, or the sidewalk ... it's all the same to me.

[Prof.Wizard]

I drive wherever the hell I want to. Straight down the middle, or the sidewalk ... it's all the same to me.
Hmm... indeed very selfish attitude!
What's your name again?! :lol:

[i]

Ignore him Prof Wizard. He's unstable.

[James]

In fact, I would rather stop this discussion right here (at least on everything related to Québec). The reason of that additional post from myself in this thread was only to correct points on which I radically disagree. I know it won't change anything in the way you think, but I somehow had to add the above anyway. I believe you would feel the same if I would say things about your country on which you wouldn't agree. And I'm very tired too so some parts of this reply might sound a bit agressive, but I'm just not in the mood to re-write it to make it look softer. I'll leave raw as it went out.
Fair enough. But you read too much into what I said - I'm always open to hearing the views of people on both sides of an argument - hell, after 3 years on SR as of next month I think you have plenty of evidence of that! It's true that my view was coloured by the media in Eastern Canada - they were always nervous of the issue since they saw a strong Quebec "seperating" them from the rest of Canada. Plus I think a lot of Canadians were hurt by the thought of Quebec wanting to leave.

Remember too that I left Canada in September 1997, so what I experienced dates from then. Quebec's issues don't get well publicised outside Canada, making it hard to follow the debate. And as you well know, the Globe and Mail isn't exactly the greatest source of unbiased commentary.

[Tea]

So, what's wrong with the Herald Sun? Oh, sorry, you're from Sydney. Make that the Daily Mail. (Or is it the Telegraph?) I get the tabloids all mixed up.]

[James]

The Daily Telegraph. *shudder*

[Pradeep]

Aussie Post lads, there is no better.