Audio Equipment

[ddrueding]

This thread is meant to be a discussion of audio equipment. Both inside computers to the limit of computer-based audio, and viable alternatives at the high-end.

This is a topic that I would like to learn more about, and any questions/information on this topic is welcome in this thread.

The system I use most to listen to music is a near-silent (no hard drive (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822998003), one 120mm FDB fan (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835185004) @ 7v (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835118217)) high-performance system with a Bluegears X-Plosion 7.1 sound card (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=605522) hooked up to Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 speakers (http://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-ProMedia-Certified-Computer-3-Speaker/dp/B000062VUO/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt/103-9954200-7914217?ie=UTF8).

I'm exploring what it would take to get better sound. What is the weak-link in this system, and where should I go with it. My fear is that anything significantly better will be of significant cost. As this is an informative exploration, this shouldn't really be considered an obstacle. I suspect that pursuit of better sound will lead to an external audio amplifier and some good bookshelf or floorstanding speakers.

An external amplifier (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-Wjbml1LarCd/cgi-bin/prodview.asp?i=642PM7001&s=0&cc=01) will be able to amplify 2 channels (I don't care about surround) but then I'm still dependant on the DAC and opamps on the soundcard. (correct?) The only way around this is to get a full-blown reciever (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-Wjbml1LarCd/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=10420&I=033AV3806B) to do the DTS decoding from the sound card. (correct?)

If I go this route, what should I be looking at for speakers? What is the next appreciable step after where I am?

TIA
PUI
~DLD

[Mercutio]

I'm certain that GaryH is the guy who knows more about the actual electronics than anyone here.

Also, down the path to better sound lies utter madness. I'm serious. Stereophiles are as bad as drug addicts. One of my brothers has $12,000-apiece mono amplifiers driving single speakers worth another $15,000 each. His listening room is vibrationally isolated from the rest of his house.

Granted, he can afford to do that kind of crap.

What I can say is that you can't go wrong buying superior speakers. Klipsch speakers are generally pretty nice. They are. I don't like their sound, they don't suit the kinds of music I enjoy, but without walking into an AV Boutique, you're not going to do better.

Of course, I can tell you that your speakers are probably fine. You aren't going to believe me, or you wouldn't have made this thread.

So go to an AV Mecca. Take along three or four discs that you know and love, and have a listen. Their showroom is probably rigged with fantasically nice hardware, acoustic panelling and other dreamy features, but it's a place to start. If you're lucky, the store will let you let you audition speakers in your home.

You may very well find that you can't hear a difference between speakers. You may want to start with a "blind" listen. Whatever. You may also find out that your ears are ruined from years of listening to shitty loud music on headphones.

Anyway, there are better speakers out in the world than Klipsch, but finding the right ones is going to be a purely subjective issue. I listened to about a dozen brands of high-end speakers before I settled on Kef.

I do know that you aren't using a DAC on your sound card if you have a digital connection to something else that decodes your digital audio stream. This is the only way I've EVER hooked up my Auzentech cards, but an external receiver or Amp is still a good idea regardless. I actually prefer single-component Receivers to multiple component systems, in part because it limits how insane I can be about audio. Denon makes very nice equipment, but again, they aren't the only game in town. I like Onkyo/Integra equipment better, and Harmon Kardon is really nice, too. I've had Sony ES hardware and while I had a crappy experience with mine, IIRC it's what Stereodue uses for his audio setup. If you have the budget you might also look at Carver equipment as well. Regardless, I've found the receiver is less important than getting good speakers. On the other hand, I consider a home theater receiver to be part of my standard computer setup, just like the power supply and the DVD burner.

Anyway, it's late and those are my initial thoughts.

[ddrueding]

Merc,

Thanks for the response; yours was one of those I would value most of this group, as you have the budget and the interest to provide valuable feedback at this level. I understand that investment at this level requires an exponential increase in investment for a linear increase in quality, but I'm willing to take it just a step or two further if budget allows.

If you tell me that I can't do significantly better for less than $2000; I'll trust you and be happy where I am for now. The quality really is quite good; not a day goes by where I'll play a track that I haven't heard in a while and be amazed. Keep in mind that my ideal before this was onboard sound with Sony MDR-V6 headphones, so there was plenty of room for improvement.

[ddrueding]

FYI:

P.U.ExtreemeI.: (third bottle: a Pariso '02 Syrah...$50/bottle)

My apologies for any typos or indirect offense towards other posters...

[Pradeep]

You could have a significant improvement in quality with some nice headphones, and a dedicated headphone amp. Plus it takes room acoustics out of the picture. Only works if you are listening for one tho.

[Mercutio]

You might try buying a more modest receiver, something in the realm of $300 - $500. Something like an Onkyo TXSR674, maybe (just as a suggestion; I've never heard one, but it has an appealing feature set). Your Klipsch speakers are REAL speakers IIRC, they have real speaker terminals to be attached directly to home audio equipment.

If nothing else, the receiver is an A/V switch. You can plug you DVD player, TiVo, PC and VCR into it and then have a single connection to whatever you're using for your video output. Even if you don't hear an improvement, that's still a handy thing to be able to do.

For what it's worth, Circuit City carries a decent selection of Onkyo and HK equipment. Best Buy has Klipsch speakers if you want a manlier set and don't know where to go. Most of the Hifi stores I've been are actually even more rapacious than Best Buy, if you can believe it.

[Buck]

Very nice thread. I was recently given some used surround speakers, the center being a Klipsch -- certainly made an enjoyable difference in clarity.

[ddrueding]

Thanks for all the responses so far. Multiple inputs is not an issue, unless I want to have discreet inputs for my computers. I have no stereo, no TiVo, no TV, no DVD player, no turntable....nada. I'm just focusing on my one source mentioned above, and getting out to some speakers.

If the soundcard I have is good, and the speakers I have are "real speakers", perhaps I shouldn't be looking for more?

[ddrueding]

...perhaps I shouldn't be looking for more?

What a silly thought (it's passed now).

One of the reasons I specifically stated stereo sound was my focus was because I wanted to concentrate on quality over number of channels. Considering 95% of my source material is stereo, I didn't think more speakers would make an appreciable difference.

Headphones are out; I don't like wearing them (even the really comfortable light ones), and occasionally there are more people listening.

[Bozo]

A few years ago I did what Merc suggested: I took a cd that I liked to every store that carried good speakers. I watched as the sales person loaded my cd, insisting that the amp/reciever be set at Nuetral. No bass boost or any help from the amp/reciever. I also ask to have the cd played from what the store considered their best amp/reciever. Then I sat in the middle of the room and had the sales person switch speakers as I was listening.
The cd I took along was Glen Miller. Thses songs were digitally mastered a few years ago. The reason for Glen Miller is to make the speakers work from the very highs to the very lows. This was round one.
In round two I went back to each store that had something I thought I might like. This time I brought a cd with the William Tell Ovature on it. Again to make the speakers work.
The whole process took about three weeks. I ended up buying a pair of Klipsch speakers.
You will deffinately be able to tell the difference between so-so speakers and good speakers. But it is subjective. Everybody's ears are different.
This was circa 1990 and the speakers cost $2500.00 then. I still have them and they still sound great.

You get what you pay for.

Bozo :joker:

[timwhit]

I really hate how Klipsch speakers sound. Horns are for stadiums, not for home listening.

Go to a high-end audio store and test out some speakers. If they won't let you bring them home for a trial run, then find a different store that will.

When my Dad was buying a set of Paradigm speakers a couple years ago that were around $500, they even let him take those home and test them. So, even if you aren't spending $10k, you should still expect good service.

Just don't let anyone sucker you into spending $500 on speaker cables or optical interconnects. That stuff is a genuine rip-off.

$300-500 on a receiver is plenty. You could even look at used Onkyos or HK on eBay, though I don't know if I would trust a used receiver.

I love my NHT 2.5i's. I listened to a lot of speakers before I bought those and I still haven't found a pair of speakers I like more for the amount I paid for them ($800 if I remember correctly). They look (http://nhthifi.com/images/products/prod_large/25i.jpg) nice too.

I would also check out Definitive Technology, I like how those speakers sound a lot.

[Mercutio]

What a silly thought (it's passed now).

One of the reasons I specifically stated stereo sound was my focus was because I wanted to concentrate on quality over number of channels. Considering 95% of my source material is stereo, I didn't think more speakers would make an appreciable difference.

Headphones are out; I don't like wearing them (even the really comfortable light ones), and occasionally there are more people listening.

I concur on the subject of headphones. Being an adult and having my own living space means being able to listen comfortably.

But, on to more constructive comments:

You are making a mistake by ignoring surrounds. The addition of discrete surrounds from stereo sources is one of the prime technical advantages of the Auzentech audio card you have now. Even if 95% of your media is stereo only, it can come out your speakers as surround sound.

Plus, if you watch DVDs, you're missing 3/5.1 of the soundtrack.

What I would *try* in your place would be to obtain an HT receiver (Circuit City will give you a no-restock-fee return if nothing else), a center channel and possibly two other mains. I'd probably choose to use the speakers you have now as the surrounds, but whatever floats your boat.

The center channel is the most important speaker in your audio setup. You do not have a center channel. Use of a center implies some kind of surround processing (which is what Dolby Live and DTS Connect are for, man), but it's incredibly worthwhile. Listen to me. I'm not exaggerating. I would not be typing this if I didn't think it was worthwhile advice.

If you buy a surround setup, try to at least get speakers from the same manufacturer. Good speakers are not necessarily unbelievably expensive, but they should all use the same construction techniques and audio properties (ie, they are timbre-matched).

As timwhit says, people who push fancy cables are f'in insane. That said, I have them, my brother's hand-me-down stuff. They don't make a difference. They just look nicer. "Monster Cable" is a rip-off, particularly for a digital interconnect. I made a SPDIF cable out of 18-gauge speaker wire that sent the same signals to my receiver as a solid-palladium RS Audio cable.

[Mercutio]

Oh, and on the experience of hearing your favorite music out of better equipment than you've heard before:

Fully expect to hear things you've never noticed. Picks sliding across guitar strings. Tapping feet. Soft sighs of breath. More cowbell. That stuff was there all along.

If you're really into what you're hearing, it'll be a gooseflesh-raising, quasi-spiritual moment.

[ddrueding]

If only I had $10,000 to spend on this...these look perfect for my needs (http://nhthifi.com/2006/products/pro/m60.html).

[ddrueding]

Alright, back to reality. I hadn't seen Merc's most recent posts when I made my last.

Surround it is. Looking for a reciever and speakers. I'll probably take the Klipsch I have and move them elsewhere, so consider me starting from scratch.

Getting a reciever like this one (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Onkyo-Home-Theater-Receiver-TX-SR504-/sem/rpsm/oid/148422/catOid/-12949/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do)? It has so many buttons that I will never, ever use....is there something that just does DTS decoding and amplification?

Getting speakers like these (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Polk-Bookshelf-Speakers-Monitor-40-/sem/rpsm/oid/93009/catOid/-12950/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do)?

Would this sound better than what I have now?

[ddrueding]

Or when you say matched speakers do you mean something like this (http://www.circuitcity.com/rpsm/oid/148033/originURLEncoded/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.circuitcity.com%252Fccd%252 Fcategorylist.do%253Fcmpstr%253D%2526bMore%253D%25 26N%253D20012898%252B20012950%252B40001693%2526No% 253D20%2526catOid%253D-12950%2526link%253Dref%2526PAGE_ACTION%253D%2526c% 253D1/rpem/ccd/productDetailSpecification.do#tabs)?

[Buck]

If only I had $10,000 to spend on this...these look perfect for my needs (http://nhthifi.com/2006/products/pro/m60.html).


:drool:

[fb]

If only I had $10,000 to spend on this...these look perfect for my needs (http://nhthifi.com/2006/products/pro/m60.html).
Looks really nice... A cheaper compact alternative might be a Linn Classik Movie (http://www.knekt.com/classik_movie/) connected to a couple of Katans, (http://www.knekt.com/spec_sound/product_display.cfm?ProductID=127&activeNavBar=products&activeSubNavBar=Playback) or something like that.

[Bozo]

I really hate how Klipsch speakers sound. Horns are for stadiums, not for home listening.

My Klipsch don't have horns. It's a little round thing. But, this technology is almost 20 yeras old. Some of the new speakers I'm sure sound better.

Both of my Pioneer speaker sets have horns. But they are even older than the Klipsch.

Bozo :joker:

[ddrueding]

Looks really nice... A cheaper compact alternative might be a Linn Classik Movie (http://www.knekt.com/classik_movie/) connected to a couple of Katans, (http://www.knekt.com/spec_sound/product_display.cfm?ProductID=127&activeNavBar=products&activeSubNavBar=Playback) or something like that.

Those look great, and include the surround decoder, but I can't find prices anywhere. I somehow suspect it's still a lot of money.

[Stereodude]

What is your total budget? If you're looking for a decent 5.1 system on the cheap you can get a nice HTIB. Or, if you're looking to spend a little more you can get something like this http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=92.1 and a nice receiver that isn't too expensive. Like http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/vModelDetail?storeId=15001&catalogId=13401&itemId=97243&catGroupId=25013&modelNo=SA-XR57S&surfModel=SA-XR57S&cacheProgram=11002&cachePartner=7000000000000005702

[Mercutio]

Home Theater in a Box setups are usually pretty anemic. If you're LUCKY they rely on the bass module to deliver decent sound. Which, come to think of it, is just like computer speakers.

I use a set of Acoustic Research AR-HC5s for the audio rig in my office. The center isn't as good as I'd like, but the sub is, and for the money I don't have any complaints. You can find that set for $250 or so. I don't think they're made any more, but they're still available.

If you are looking for a "starter" set that you might choose to upgrade a piece at a time, be sure you look at companies that actually make more expensive yet obtainable speakers. Not Acoustic Research but Cambridge Soundworks, Klipsch, Polk or Infinity.

As an alternative, you could look at a digital sound projector (http://www.yamaha.com/yec/YSP1/idx_ysp1000.htm). I've heard them. Not knowing what I was listening to, I wouldn't've guessed it was a single speaker. This may be EXACTLY what ddrueding needs.

[Mercutio]

Sort of Tangental to the audio issue (http://www.hardware.info/en-UK/articles/am9nY2pqZA/ATI_and_nVidia_crush__2000_DVD_players/), this is a comparison between PC-based video playback and a number of standalone DVD players. Stuff like this is why I <3 my HTPC.

[Buck]

All this talk about quality home theater systems gave me the urge to use my own eclectic setup. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan came out quite good on a Samsung 32” LCD display powered by component video and everything audio analogue, with the help of my favorite: Dolby Pro LogicII – fantastic! Out of all the Star Trek movies, number 2 has the best sound track, in my opinion. During the ending credit, silence all around but the music from the movie is allowed. ;) I wish.

[Bartender]

Buck, you failed to mention how your movie watching enjoyment was enhanced by the consumption of fresh Leberkäse on rye bread. Oh, and the can of Boddingtons improved your perception of the movie.

[Buck]

Nonetheless, Bartender, Technics did a great job almost a decade ago implementing Dolby Pro Logic II.

The article Mercutio referred to is a nice read. Makes one want to build a HTPC. Thanks Merc.

[Mercutio]

Wanna know a movie that's cool to look at and listen to, even if it's not really that good?

The George Clooney version of Solaris. It's a great test disc for a home theater system.

[fb]

Those look great, and include the surround decoder, but I can't find prices anywhere. I somehow suspect it's still a lot of money.
I think the Classik Movie costs around $4000, they also have a Classik Musik for around $2000, but the Movie apparently plays CD's much better, and the Katans should cost around $1000. Maybe it's a little bit of money, but it's cheap for the amount of sound quality.

[Stereodude]

Home Theater in a Box setups are usually pretty anemic. If you're LUCKY they rely on the bass module to deliver decent sound. Which, come to think of it, is just like computer speakers.
There are a some reasonable ones out there from Onkyo. If someone's got a max budget of $200-$400 and they want 5.1 surround sound a "nice" HTIB is about the only way that's going to happen.

[Stereodude]

Sort of Tangental to the audio issue (http://www.hardware.info/en-UK/articles/am9nY2pqZA/ATI_and_nVidia_crush__2000_DVD_players/), this is a comparison between PC-based video playback and a number of standalone DVD players. Stuff like this is why I <3 my HTPC.
I read that article as well, but that's not exactly the best test disc. It's designed to by the Terenex HQV folks to show off their Realta HQV processor. Not surprising, it wins. They put some emphasis on noise reduction and other things that they award points that aren't really an indicator of how good your de-interlacer/scalar is. I would have been curious to see how the results changed if the dvd players output 1080i instead of 480p.

On a related note, there have been quite a few people at AVSforum who seem to indicate that ATI is cheating (perhaps recognizing the test scenes) to do as well as they do on that benchmark, and that their decoder doesn't work as well on real world dvds as it does on the HQV disc. If I remember correctly the cadence section specifically is what they complain about.

[adriel]

If you're a 2-channel music listener like myself, as I understand from your original post, I have a few suggestions below. If however, you intend to convert to a movie watching/DTS decoding/5.1++/receiver/ setup, you don't need to read anything more of my reply.

For serious music listening from a PC, you will need to output ASIO (or similar methods) through a 2-meter glass optical Toslink cable to a jitter reduction device. Then from the jitter reduction, into a DAC designed for hifi, as opposed to a receiver designed for 7.1++ theater.

If your speakers are sitting right on your computer desk, I would try to find room behind the desk for speaker stands. If you're listening in near-field, I recommend time-aligned speakers such as coaxial mounted tweeters/concentrics/ or full range drivers/whizzer cones/phase plugs. That way you don't have middle frequencies and high frequencies sounding like they're coming from two different regions of space vertically, when in reality, like sitting down at a piano, they should sound horizontally left-right.


Personally I have a 2-meter glass Toslink cable coming out of my computer (Waveterminal U2A USB, looking to switch to Edirol U5A or similar) into a Monarchy Audio DIP Classic. This model is designed for 44.1, and reclocks the data with a more accurate oscillator. I am looking to upgrade the crystal inside with an Adcom Superclock III for around $300 in the future. Then, from the DIP, it goes to my DAC (currently a non-oversampling multi-bit, digital filterless design).

The above can be simplified into a one-piece design; the ones I have seen are around $1500-$2200.

If I was getting back into the hobby fulltime, I would need to budget $2000 for speakers, $2000 for an amplifier, and $600 for a source upgrade for the computer. Unfortunately, the total cost of the car is around $1000 per month and is keeping me in check until it becomes fully paid off in 6 years. I just think of all the gear I could purchase every month for $1000, just by not having a car around...

[Pradeep]

What kind of car do you have that costs $1K per month?

[Pradeep]

The Klipsch THX Ultra speakers are reportedly excellent (no comparison to the computer speakers).

[Stereodude]

What kind of car do you have that costs $1K per month?
Apparently one that costs about $60+k

[ddrueding]

All,

Thanks so much for all the info. I'm really enjoying all the dialogue. What I'm most interested in at the moment is the next step after my current ~$300 configuration. Something under $1500 lets say. Not that that is a hard number, if I can be convinced that more could be wisely spent, I could find the work that would find the money. But (as Merc said) that way lies maddness.

So the next step after mine. DTS out? External surround decoder/Amplifier? Matched 5.1 speaker setup? $500 for the electronics and $1000 for the speakers?

I'm posting from my hotel room in Sausalito, CA. from the Art Festival (http://www.sausalitoartfestival.org/home.html) where my girlfriend (http://kupkepeyla.com/) is showing her work.

I won't be able to actively participate in the conversation until I get home on Tuesday.

[Stereodude]

So the next step after mine. DTS out? External surround decoder/Amplifier? Matched 5.1 speaker setup? $500 for the electronics and $1000 for the speakers?
Given $1500 I would suggest a receiver and speakers. The question to you is do you want a receiver + 2 speakers + maybe a sub now (giving you 2.0/2.1) with the capability of expanding to 5.1 later with matching speakers, or do you want a receiver + a 5.1 speaker setup now?

[ddrueding]

Screw it. I'm not going to go through the added hasstle of a reciever just to get the same 2.1 I have now. I'll get a 5.1 speaker setup at the same time.

What about 7.1? Snake Oil?

[Mercutio]

I can think of maybe a half-dozen DVDs that have 6.1 soundtracks, let alone seven.

Did you look at that Yamaha sound projector?

[ddrueding]

The Yamaha looks fascinating. If it performs as well as it's traditional competitors in that price range, it may be exactly what I'm looking for. How was the audio quality?

[Stereodude]

Screw it. I'm not going to go through the added hasstle of a reciever just to get the same 2.1 I have now. I'll get a 5.1 speaker setup at the same time.

What about 7.1? Snake Oil?
Well, it wouldn't be the same 2.1 you have now. It would be much better sounding 2.1 :D

7.1 isn't snake oil, but depending on your room and other factors it just might not make sense.

[Stereodude]

I can think of maybe a half-dozen DVDs that have 6.1 soundtracks, let alone seven.
But, there is Dolby Pro Logic IIx which will turn any 2.0/2.1 --> 5.1 source into 7.1

[Stereodude]

The Yamaha looks fascinating. If it performs as well as it's traditional competitors in that price range, it may be exactly what I'm looking for. How was the audio quality?
I haven't heard it, but it isn't going to perform as well as real discrete speakers.

[Mercutio]

Yes, but taken in combination, the sound projector is a better deal than buying a HTiB kit.
And for what it's worth, it DOES have real speakers. About 30 of them. As I understand it, there's a longish setup process where it figures out where to point each of the speakers to maximize echos and reflections so that you get the full surround you're supposed to have.

[Pradeep]

That sound projector reminds me of the Bose 901. Dozens of ultra cheap drivers meant very loud, but very crap music. I'm sure the Yamaha is better, but still...

I would say it is more for the flat panel crowd that don't want 6 or 7 speakers cluttering their living space.

For speakers, try something like this:

http://svsound.com/products-spks-sbs01.cfm

And add a sub to suit when ready.

[Pradeep]

Try this:

http://www.svsound.com/products-sys-sbs.cfm

5 speakers plus sub for $999. Should be sufficient for any apartment dweller. The Pioneer 1015 receiver is good value for money.

[Stereodude]

I'd go with the AV123 X-LS/X-CS setup over the SVS one.

[ddrueding]

We'll see how good the Yamaha YSP-1000 is; I have a new client in Marin that wants a home theater. I'll be aquiring a demo unit to try out at his place.

[ddrueding]

Thoughts? (http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=65.1)

[Stereodude]

Thoughts? (http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=65.1)
It's a pretty darn potent combo... I've heard the SP3 before with the Ref 1.5's and it's solid. I've heard the Ref 1's on quite a few occasions and they're impressive as well.

[Stereodude]

I should point out that they're a tad bit bright for my tastes, but lots of people swear by them. You can try them out for 30 days and send them back if you don't like them, so there's not much risk.

I prefer the sound of my RS1000 (http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=46.1) running through my Perpetual Technology P-1A (http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=processors&product=1.1). I've got the SOCS software for my RS1000s loaded in mine.

[ddrueding]

...and of course, your system costs 4x as much...

[Stereodude]

...and of course, your system costs 4x as much...
Well, I prefer the Rockets to the Ref's due to their treble characteristics, not due to price. I like my RS1000s better than the Ref 3, so it's not really a $$$ issue here. I really like my X-LS bookshelves too, and they're cheap.

[Stereodude]

What other equipment are you considering?

[ddrueding]

After looking at everything and filling shopping carts from all kinds of stores, I've decided that what I want for my place is a pair of speakers (probably with a sub later) that can play from my one source (computer). My current listening position is ~1m from each speaker, with them ~1.5m apart. This is unlikely to change. I don't believe that digital conversion for the 3' from CPU to reciever is worth the extra crap I'd need to buy.

I'm doing a significant amount of work on home theateres in general these days (for clients), but (for me) I just want to listen to my music.

[Stereodude]

I don't believe that digital conversion for the 3' from CPU to reciever is worth the extra crap I'd need to buy.
Just a soundcard with a really clean 2 channel output like the M-Audio Revolution 7.1 to feed the external amp.

[ddrueding]

Auzentech just came out with another expensive soundcard, the Auzen X-Meridian 7.1 with a MSRP of $200. I need someone who knows more than me to explain why, for my purposes, its better than the X-Plosion I have now, or the M-Audio Revolution mentioned above.

[Stereodude]

If you're only doing 2 channel, you don't. Heck, the Revolution 5.1 might be just the ticket (it's a little cheaper than the 7.1 and you don't need the extra channels).

[Onomatopoeic]

How's this look for some hi-fi audio on a budget!?!


http://www.geocities.com/qgap/Pipe_Dreams.html

[Buck]

Does anyone have experience with current model Polk speakers? I've been reading about some of their products, such as the Monitor 60 fronts, CS2 center, and PSW1000 subwoofer. They seem like top quality speakers, especially for home theater use. My curiousity lies with the difference between top quality speakers. I'm sure individually, each speaker has its strength and weakness, but when combined as a 5.1 setup, I expect that those are usually all ironed out. For example, some say that the Polk Monitor 60 fronts lack bass, but once you hook up a dual 10" driver subwoofer, the weakness in the fronts has been more than compensated. So, where would perceived weaknesses in a complete setup be, or is there none, and the sound difference is just minor? I expect they will all sound crisp, clear, dynamic, and powerful. When quality and prices are similar, sound must be very subjective.

[Stereodude]

I'm not too familiar with current Polk speakers. Generally, you can get more bang for your buck factory direct with some online brands.

[e_dawg]

A couple of the guys I used to talk to in the old CompuServe audio forums said good things about Polk speakers in the late 90's. No idea about their current stuff. Amongst American speakers, you could certainly do worse.

Just heard Totem Acoustic speakers the other day. On demo were the Sttaf small towers and the Dreamcatcher sub. All I have to say is "wow". The dyanmics remind me of Thiel speakers, and they have the imaging and natural sound of B&W Matrix 805's.

http://www.totemacoustic.com/

The DreamCatcher 5.1 HT system was well reviewed in Andrew Marshall's Audio Ideas Guide:

http://www.audio-ideas.com/reviews/loudspeakers/totem-dreamcatcher.html

[ddrueding]

I was just screwing around on my computer and decided to enable the on-board "HD Audio" Azalia stuff...It's really, really good. My roomate helped me do a double-blind test of it against my Auzentech X-Plosion card; neither of us could tell the difference reliably.

[Mercutio]

Try it with surround. It'll be much, much easier.

[ddrueding]

No doubt. I'm sure there is a reason the X-Plosion costs what it does; I'm just observing that I'm not it. For regular 2-channel music, I really can't hear the difference.

[Stereodude]

I want a sound card that can connect to a video card for HDMI output. Then the PC could output uncompressed 24/96kHz audio instead of sticking us with analog outputs, or DD and DTS encoded surround sound.

[ddrueding]

I want a sound card that can connect to a video card for HDMI output. Then the PC could output uncompressed 24/96kHz audio instead of sticking us with analog outputs, or DD and DTS encoded surround sound.

I'm betting you'll see an ATI All-in-Wonder card that has a sound card built-in before you see some kind of interface between Audio and Video my different mfgs. Most likely of all would probably be an after market box that injects audio into the HDMI line.

[Mercutio]

Apparently, All-in-Wonder was one of the first things to be tossed after the ATI/AMD merger.

So... no, it won't be that.

[Stereodude]

Most likely of all would probably be an after market box that injects audio into the HDMI line.
I'm not sure about that. There's no way to get multiple channels of 24/96 audio from a PC into an external box that would put audio on the HDMI cable.

I wonder if nVidia will use some of their Soundstorm expertise to put audio on some of their video cards for HDMI video and audio output?

[Mercutio]

It's all about the fact that HDCP wants "single trusted source" for everything. I have a feeling that it'll be a while before our options are what they actually should be.

[Sol]

Where would the audio go from the HDMI cable anyway? I've yet to see a TV with speakers that I think you'd be able to tell the difference between analog and uncompressed digital audio on, or one with a really nice built in 8 channel amp. If it's going to a separate amplifier I would have thought getting the audio out of the HDMI cable would be no less challenging than getting it in was. If you have an amp that can take a HDMI connector then you probably want to have one on your PC just for audio and a separate one for video so I'd say it's pretty much just up to the sound card makers.

[Mercutio]

I think that it won't be too long before displays start coming with Digital Audio Projectors rather than speaker setups. Seems like a decent enough fit to me.

[Stereodude]

Where would the audio go from the HDMI cable anyway? I've yet to see a TV with speakers that I think you'd be able to tell the difference between analog and uncompressed digital audio on, or one with a really nice built in 8 channel amp. If it's going to a separate amplifier I would have thought getting the audio out of the HDMI cable would be no less challenging than getting it in was. If you have an amp that can take a HDMI connector then you probably want to have one on your PC just for audio and a separate one for video so I'd say it's pretty much just up to the sound card makers.
It would go into my Pioneer Elite receiver (VSX-84TXSi) that has 4 HDMI inputs (for audio and video).

[Pradeep]

Where would the audio go from the HDMI cable anyway? I've yet to see a TV with speakers that I think you'd be able to tell the difference between analog and uncompressed digital audio on, or one with a really nice built in 8 channel amp. If it's going to a separate amplifier I would have thought getting the audio out of the HDMI cable would be no less challenging than getting it in was. If you have an amp that can take a HDMI connector then you probably want to have one on your PC just for audio and a separate one for video so I'd say it's pretty much just up to the sound card makers.

The idea is to have HDMI from the device (blu-ray, hd-dvd, pc) going into a receiver (which can playback/decode the audio). Then another HDMI cable from the receiver to the display device.

Some of the HDCP enabled video cards allow you to "add" S/PDIF to the HDMI output.

http://anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2874&p=5

It's only a matter of time until uncompressed audio is routed thru as well. At which time all the Creative overpriced turd will become even less valuable (is it possible?)

[Sol]

I think a separate HDMI for your sound card would work just as well and be easier to implement than passing the audio to the video card. I guess it wouldn't help if you wanted the convenience of a single cable and were happy to use the TVs speakers, but it's not that much more convenient...

[Stereodude]

I think a separate HDMI for your sound card would work just as well and be easier to implement than passing the audio to the video card. I guess it wouldn't help if you wanted the convenience of a single cable and were happy to use the TVs speakers, but it's not that much more convenient...
That won't work though. The audio and video need to be on the same HDMI cable. Besides, the audio is inserted in the horizontal and vertical blanking interval of the video signal.

And, I'm not using my TV's speakers. My 7.1 Receiver/Amp takes the audio off the HDMI cable and amplifies it after processing with it's 7 140W amps. It also passes the video signal onto the TV via HDMI.

[Sol]

Hmm O.K I knew HDMI wasn't really here to help, I didn't think it was quite that inflexible...

[Stereodude]

Hmm O.K I knew HDMI wasn't really here to help, I didn't think it was quite that inflexible...
How do you figure? 1 cable carries up to 8 channel 24bit 96kHz audio and the HD video together. It's pretty simple. I have my DVD player connected to my receiver with 1 cable. I have 1 cable from my receiver to my TV.

I'm just waiting for a 1 cable solution from the PC that offers better audio fidelity than SPDIF.

[Sol]

I guess it just seems to me that HDMI is there to limit your options as much as it is to reduce the number of cables you need. I don't really want to have a heap of separate cables going all over the place but I'd rather have more control of how my system was set up than have a single cable solution that defines what I have to do...

[ddrueding]

Well, if everything had HDMI, then it wouldn't be that big a problem.

[Stereodude]

... but I'd rather have more control of how my system was set up than have a single cable solution that defines what I have to do...
Can you give me an example of how HDMI limits what you could do? HDMI doesn't take away options that you currently have now, it just gives you some new ones.

[Mercutio]

Except for the DRM...

[Stereodude]

Except for the DRM...
DVI +HDCP has the same "DRM" in it. And, we can whine all day long about HDCP, but it doesn't interfere with anything I'm trying to do. AACS and CSS were PITA DRM, but HDCP is pretty much transparent.

[Sol]

It is now but we've yet to see any real enforcement. The thing that worries me about HDMI and HDCP is that they have DRM options that can be switched on later (I.E the enforcement of lower resolutions for some devices).

The encryption couldn't help the difficulty with splitting the audio and video. I would expect that if they dropped the encryption then the processing power saved could either make HD devices cheaper or maybe even be used to implement some sort of lossless compression that might reduce the bandwidth requirements enough to allow for longer cables.

HDMI doesn't allow me to have my computer connected to a TV in another room (Which I've been known to do) it doesn't give me a great deal of flexability with picking a seperate sound and video device to suit my needs, or building one from off the shelf componants (I mean amplifiers and speakers rather than mosfets and capacitors). I doubt a whole heap of audio equipment will be supporting HDMI at all since it can't easily (or practically may be a better word) be used as a dedicated audio only technology so I'm left with (potentially) a really nice hifi for playing my music which isn't interoperable with my surround sound system or HD TV.

I don't know, to be honest (and as you might have guessed) I haven't done all that much research on the technology, if I can use it to plug my Wii into my TV (When and if I buy a Wii and a TV) then that's the extent of the use I'll have for it. But it seems like a technology that's potentially quite good at exactly what it's designed for but which is almost useless if there is no specific hardware which is purpose-built and certified by the relevant working groups (Read MPAA) for your exact situation. I.E your amp supports HDMI pass through, that's not the same as having HDMI inputs and outputs, you can't get a CD player with HDMI output and plug it in, you can't hook up your HDMI portable music player (unless it's a video player I guess), and sure that's not what HDMI is for and your amp probably has other inputs, but if the move in the industry is towards HDMI only, and if the MPAA pretty much control the HDMI standard (And the ability of any manufacturer to implement it via licensing and legally enforced copy protection systems) then it seems like a lot of consumer choice could be put in the hands of people with a vested interest in, and a track record of having no scruples about, limiting that choice. And that would suck.

[Pradeep]

I don't understand what you mean by not being able to have your PC hooked up to your TV in another room?

http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&style=

There's cables for 50ft+

Almost every A/V receiver now coming to the market has some type of HDMI switching.

You definitely won't need HDMI to hook up your Wii, it only does 480p. The best cabling available is component output. HDMI is designed to transmit HD video (plus a ton of channels of up to uncompressed audio). If your needs are met with good ole S/PDIF via toslink or co-ax, then there is no need for you to worry.

[ddrueding]

Well, now that my priorities have been reassigned, I've just ordered one of these (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-5ZRYJRCJvqd/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=37600&I=580HTS680B). I hope all will be well.

Any comments on how the quality of the sound will compare to my dear Klipsch 2.1?

[Mercutio]

A little light in the digital input department.
Your Klipsches will sound louder and boomier. You are probably used to that. You can still use them for your front left and right speakers if you really want though.

[ddrueding]

Eh, just bought this from the local Fry's for $20 more. Impulse buys are so much fun.

[ddrueding]

...and in less than 2 hours, crutchfield was able to charge my card, prep the order and ship it! Now I have to refuse the order and get my money back...eventually.

[Stereodude]

Why do that? Take the one they ship you back to Fry's.

[Buck]

I have no current plans of purchasing audio equipment, however, I do have some audio equipment questions.

While looking at different brands and devices, I've come across a setup using a B&K Reference 50 S2 processor and a B&K Reference 200.7 S2 amp. Any opinions on that equipment?

[Stereodude]

It's pretty good, but it's a tad dated on the feature set...

[Buck]

It's pretty good, but it's a tad dated on the feature set...

Thanks for the quick response. What type of setup would be more current?

[ddrueding]

Why do that? Take the one they ship you back to Fry's.

I would, but the instant gratification potential casued me to splurge on the 7-channel, better version. (3 optical SPDIF ins!)

[Stereodude]

Thanks for the quick response. What type of setup would be more current?
Well, it's missing HDMI video switching and probably more importantly HDMI audio capability.

[timwhit]

I am planning on buying some rear speakers and a new center channel.

Currently I have a pair of NHT 2.5i's (http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/Reviews/NHT/index.html) for my fronts and an old center channel that I am not satisfied with.

My couch is up against the rear wall, so I plan on wall mounting either a pair of these (http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4073009) or a pair of these (http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4073003).

I think I will get this (http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4073004) for my center.

I am not sure how these will match up with the 2.5i's. Also, I am not sure how the the rear speakers will sounds when wall mounted above the couch. Something like this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170041000904) would work for the mounts.

Anyone have any comments or a better solution than what I have come up with?

[Buck]

Perhaps using something like this (http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=7.1) would provide a better surround effect.

[ddrueding]

My surround right/left and rear right/left speakers have mounting points, but the front right/left and center channel don't. I'll have to figure something out, they are kinda heavy.

[Buck]

Of course there is always the <cough>nicer (http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/Label/Model%20802D)</cough> speakers before you hit plasma.

[ddrueding]

Should I be trying to get a 50' optical cable to connect my X-Plosion to my reciever? Or will a simple coax connection be enough?

[timwhit]

Those say they are best for side-wall mounting. I am planning on mounting them behind the couch or slightly to the side on the same wall as the couch.

[Buck]

Those say they are best for side-wall mounting. I am planning on mounting them behind the couch or slightly to the side on the same wall as the couch.

Those Rocket surround speakers would seem to work nice behind the audience if there were perpendicular walls nearby on both sides.

[timwhit]

There really aren't any walls nearby, which is why I think I am going to have to mount behind the couch. Anyone have experience with this kind of setup?

[Stereodude]

Should I be trying to get a 50' optical cable to connect my X-Plosion to my reciever? Or will a simple coax connection be enough?
RG-59 or RG-60 will probably work better than a 50' optical cable, and be cheaper too. However, a 50' optical cable would probably be fine.

[Buck]

There really aren't any walls nearby, which is why I think I am going to have to mount behind the couch. Anyone have experience with this kind of setup?

My current speakers are similar to the ones you referenced. I mounted them on stands so that they would be a few inches above the back of my sofa and there wouldn't be any damage to my walls. I put them at the outer corners of the sofa and then pointed them in at an angle. The effect is good.

[timwhit]

Are they at ear level? Is your couch right up against the wall?

[Stereodude]

There really aren't any walls nearby, which is why I think I am going to have to mount behind the couch. Anyone have experience with this kind of setup?
How far from the back wall is your couch? The Rocket Dipoles will work fine on the back wall, but you might want to rewire the tweeter to be in phase rather than out of phase.

[Buck]

Are they at ear level? Is your couch right up against the wall?

Yes, they are ear level and the couch is roughly 18" from the wall.

[timwhit]

My couch is right up against the wall. I really can't move it out because the room is pretty narrow and I need as much room as possible.

I assume this will make the sound suffer, but I am unwilling to give up any more floor space. I live in a fairly small condo.

Those rockets are a bit expensive as well. I was looking to spend less than $400 for the pair.

Will those NHT's sound bad with my configuration? Do I need to look into a dipole speaker similar to the rocket?

[Stereodude]

Just FYI: The "rear" speakers for DD5.1 are supposed to be on the side, not behind you. Unless you're talking about speakers 6 & 7 in a 7.1 setup they shouldn't go behind you.

Still, if you want to put them behind you, with the couch up against the back wall, you're pretty much screwed because you don't have room. Have you considered in wall speakers?

[ddrueding]

I got all the speakers plugged in and jury-rigged a stretch of speaker wire into an SPDIF cable. The sound is quite good; easily as good as my last, less "boom-y" as Merc said, but the sharpness and clarity is easily comparable. I'm still doing some initial listening, but I suspect I'm picking up more detail as well.

I haven't even mounted the rear speakers yet - that is going to be quite a chore because of the room layout, but it will be nice once the couch finally arrives.

[timwhit]

This is what I was envisioning. My drawing is a bit crude, but gets the point across.

http://www.timwhit.com/sf/speakerlayout.gif

[Mercutio]

I've had that sort of layout before. You'll be fine. :)

[timwhit]

That is good to hear. Do you think the cheaper NHT speakers I linked above will be fine or should I go for the larger more expensive ones?

[Stereodude]

In the back it probably doesn't matter so much...

[timwhit]

That was what I was thinking too. $140 for an extra 1.25" of driver probably won't make that much of a difference on the two speakers that are used the least. I think I would rather spend that $140 on a new receiver to replace my aging/crappy s*ny that is at least 7 years old.

[Pradeep]

Most of the sound from a 5.1 soundtrack comes from the center channel, that bears the brunt of the duties. If anything, go up 1 model on the center channel.

[Stereodude]

Which is why you need a center channel like this one

http://stereodude.cjb.net/dscn0311.jpg

Note that's a raw MDF prototype and those are 4 7" Atom drivers.

[Buck]

Has anybody had experience with a/v stuff from NAD, Adcom or Rotel?

[Stereodude]

I've not had any personal experience with those brands. They're usually a little more money and they tend to have a few less bells and whistles than the big Japanese brands.

[ddrueding]

Which is why you need a center channel like this one

Note that's a raw MDF prototype and those are 4 7" Atom drivers.


That is yours I take it? considering the image was taken hours ago...

[Pradeep]

Did you have someone else make it for you?

I was thinking of building this one:

http://www.rawacoustics.com/item__APEX_C_Center_channel_kit_,802.html

[Stereodude]

That is yours I take it? considering the image was taken hours ago...
No, it's not mine. It's a prototype of an Onix Reference 200 center channel that will be sold exclusively in the US by AV123.

[Buck]

Well, I just purchased a pair of these:

RS450 (http://www.av123forum.com/photopost/data/500/3742450_3_med.JPG)

They will replace my ailing rear speakers.

[Pradeep]

Very nice Buck. What are you using for fronts/center?

[Buck]

Embarrassingly, these two speakers will be, by far, the most superior in my setup. The fronts are old Magnavox bookshelf speakers (I only have room for small book shelf speakers in the front) and the center is a Klipsh. The center speaker was a gift for some web work. Although it is a few years old, as a center, it does quite well for movie watching because of its bright sound. This contrasts nicely with the bookshelf speakers that seem to have a narrow frequency range and my 10" active subwoofer that can shake down the house.

When I listen to music, I use all front/rear left/right speakers. That is why the one rear blew out. It wasn't designed as a stereo speaker, if that makes sense. Anyway, those rosewood beasties should look nice and sound superb. I may just want to turn around the other way now! :)

[Stereodude]

Well, I just purchased a pair of these:

RS450 (http://www.av123forum.com/photopost/data/500/3742450_3_med.JPG)

They will replace my ailing rear speakers.Uh oh... Another Rocket owner... :D

You'll love 'em!

[Stereodude]

You could have gotten in on some of these specials Buck and gotten a full 5.1 or 7.1 setup...

http://www.av123.com/specials.php

[Buck]

Some of those deals are nice, but I can't afford to spend that much money. Plus, I have no where to put more Rocket speakers. They won't fit in my book shelf, and the floor won't work either. :( But, I look forward to my new pair!

[Stereodude]

Some of those deals are nice, but I can't afford to spend that much money. Plus, I have no where to put more Rocket speakers. They won't fit in my book shelf, and the floor won't work either. :( Wimp!!! :p

You could mount RSS300's on the walls, and stuff "bigfoot" somewhere. You're not supposed to let something silly like room layout or money dictate what you buy, or where you put it. :D That's just not the American way! :eek:

[Buck]

HA! :lol:

What I'd really like is a pair of RS1000s facing me with a Rocket Twin UFW-12 tucked away so that my entire block of condos can have the privilege of hearing Boston's Walk On medley. It'll also help scare the termites away. :)

[ddrueding]

New project....

One of the places I teach tango is at a church downtown. We rent their 6000 sq. ft. ballroom, and they provide quite possibly the worst stage speakers ever. To top it all off, the room (roughly 60'x100'x30' ceilings) has very serious reverberation/echo issues.

If I had a budget of, say, $1000; could I get some speakers/amp/stands that would work? All audio is from a pair of laptops with external sound cards, so those are the only inputs I need.

[Pradeep]

That's a rather large room.

Perhaps something from here:

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/

Thye have a lot of experience with larger venues.

But it will be over $1000.

[ddrueding]

Pradeep,

Their smallest speaker is 2,000W; and is recommended in arrays of 4. I think they are a little big for my needs.

Though their 40kW subwoofer (http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/matterhorn.htm) looks very cool. 105dB @ 250 meters.

[Pradeep]

Whilst they make take up to 2000W, you will notice that they are all extremely efficient designs. I.e it doesn't take much power at all to get extremely high volumes. They do make a couple of active speakers (amps built-in) which should pair up with your sounds cards. Some of their speakers are quite directional, i.e. you can "point" the sound so that it somewhat limited to a certain area.

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/danley_manor.htm

Obviously a larger system than you contemplate but shows what is possible.

[e_dawg]

Without knowing how feasible this is in your situation, my first inclination is to address the acoustic problems of your room first, then tackle the speakers. As bad as you think those speakers are, the room typically has a greater impact on sound than your speakers. IMO, no matter how good your speakers are, a really live, resonant room with poor acoustics can still make them sound like crap.

Even something as simple as those movable curtain or velour on metal tube partitions. Or hanging rugs or blankets on the walls. Something soft or upholstered to absorb the standing waves before they reflect off the walls. You can't do anything about the ceiling or the floor (unless you can convince them to carpet the hall), so you have to focus on the walls. All you need to do is partially cover / block 2 walls (one on each axis).

I don't know if you can build some foldable sound absorbers and leave them there between classes, but if you can that might be a good approach.

Some DIY acoustic treatment ideas from one of the original cheapskate (as in, he doesn't like paying $$ to buy things retail for something he can build himself for a fraction of the price) DIY audio guys on the net:

http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/a.htm

[ddrueding]

e_dawg,

Thanks for the info and suggestions. I've spent the last hour reading about the DIY panels...very interesting.

Unfortunately, we have no storage space at the location and we all drive hatchbacks. So anything sufficiently large would be impractical.

[e_dawg]

Just found that one of the biggest upgrades you can make to your sound is to clean your ears. Seriously.

Went to the doctor yesterday because my eustachian tubes felt plugged up. It's not uncommon for that to happen to me around this time of the year due to allergies. But upon inspection, he found that I had copious amounts of wax buildup that was causing some of the problems and wanted to clean my ears out first.

In came the nurse with a big syringe and a bowl of warm water. After giving my ears what amounts to a pressure wash, I could see half a dozen small pieces of wax in the rinse water that were gumming up my ears.

Lo and behold, I could hear much better through my right ear, and the left side was better, but not as good in comparison to my right ear. I still feel that my eustachian tubes are somewhat congested (although better than before), but what a difference in my hearing. Even quieter things (like typing and mouse clicks) seem noticeably louder now and high-frequencies come through startlingly (and sometimes excessively) clear. I am taking an antihistamine, decongestant, and flonase to reduce the inflammation and congestion.

If you haven't had your ears cleaned in a while, I recommend asking your doctor to take a look and see if you need cleaning next time you go for a checkup. Some people need regular cleanings, some people will never need it. It depends. If you're the kind that does, it will make a noticeable difference to your hearing.

[ddrueding]

I'd be tempted, but my hearing is already appreciably better than my GFs, so I need to talk loud and wach movies loud regardless.

[P5-133XL]

I would really like to get rid of speaker-wire: Any recomendations for amplified speakers with multi-channel transmitter/reciever setup?

[LiamC]

Just bought some Richter PM-401's. Coupled with an Onkyo TX-SR503. First time I've bought audio in a while.

http://www.richter.com.au/framed.htm?http://www.richter.com.au/rp01.htm

My intent was for DVD surround, and to listen to music. Damn that was hard. Booming surround and clear speech had music much too "bright". The setup is a reasonable compromise. Layered production such as Monaco/New Order sounds tremendous. So does acoustic/folky stuff, though a little bright. Think REM's Automatic for the People. Now I've just got to wire the rear surrounds...

[ddrueding]

ow I've just got to wire the rear surrounds...

I've been too lazy to do that for the last several months. I got a 7.1 system and the rear/side 4 speakers are still sitting on top of my front L&R channels.

[timwhit]

I listened to the Anthony Gallo Reference 3.1 (http://www.roundsound.com/reference-3-speakers.htm) speakers yesterday. They were absolutely amazing. If I had $3k to spend on a pair of speakers, they would be at the top of my list.

[ddrueding]

Those are really beautiful speakers.

[timwhit]

I'm considering the Harman/Kardon AVR 445 (http://www.harmankardon.com/product_detail.aspx?cat=REC&sType=C&prod=AVR+445) receiver. Does anyone have any opinions? I can get it for around $570 shipped.

[e_dawg]

Looks hot. Should be decent for sound quality. h/k is a cut above the mass market consumer stuff like Sony, Pioneer, JVC, Kenwood, Sherwood, et al.

[timwhit]

How about compared with the Onkyo TX-SR674 (http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=TX-SR674&class=Receiver&p=i)?

[Mercutio]

I'm a big fan of Onkyo/Integra equipment and that particular unit has pretty much every feature you'll actually use built into it. Net-Tune is kind of OK but since my receivers are all hooked up to PCs that I don't ever turn off.

Another nice thing is that most Onkyo receivers carry a two year factory warranty.

[Pradeep]

One thing that you may or may not care about is if the receiver can playback/decode multi-channel audio via HDMI, or whether it only switches the video/audio. This would be especially relevant if you have a PS 3 or other HD playback device that only outputs multi-channel HD audio via HDMI.

[mubs]

Looks hot. Should be decent for sound quality. h/k is a cut above the mass market consumer stuff like Sony, Pioneer, JVC, Kenwood, Sherwood, et al.
Till a few years ago, Sherwood (actually it's Korean parent) used to build the stuff for HK, and some other well known brands.

[Pradeep]

I won't say no to this bad boy:

http://www.audioholics.com/news/trade-show-coverage/2007-consumer-electronics-show-ces/sherwood-newcastle-r-972-hdmi-1-3-receiver

[timwhit]

After doing some research and talking to a bunch of different people at audio stores, I decided that HDMI switching is pointless to spend money on, especially since I don't have any HDMI devices currently. I also heard good things about Denon receivers from a lot of audio stores, even if they didn't sell Denon.

I wasn't planning on buying anything this quickly, but my 9 year old Sony crapped out on me while I was watching a movie, so I decided to pull the trigger.

I went with the Denon AVR-1907 (http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3254.asp). Got it for less than $350 2-day shipped, so I feel like I got a pretty good deal.

[timwhit]

A friend of mine recently purchased a very lightly used pair of Rega R5 (http://www.rega.co.uk/html/R5.htm) loudspeakers for ~$700 (Retail is ~$1250). They are a very impressive set of speakers.

I went with him to a number of audio stores throughout Chicago listening to speakers, and these really were a notch above anything in the $1000 range.

[Wavemaker]

http://cachepe.zzounds.com/media/quality,85/brand,zzounds/fit,400by400/iTTUSB10-67d16e90231b83dbc32d58f14878df7d.jpg

This US$179 ~ $199 USB Turntable could be a convenient tool for certain people...

http://www.zzounds.com/item--IONITTUSB10

[e_dawg]

Spent the afternoon auditioning components and speakers for a potential new 2 channel audio setup. Looked at the following:

Amps

NAD c372
Roksan Kandy L.III
Cambridge Audio 540R
Parasound Halo P3 + A23 pre/power combo

CD Players

NAD c542
Roksan Kandy CD
Cambridge Audio 840c up-sampling
Parasound D3 CD/SACD/DVD-A/DVD-V

Speakers

Totem Arro
Totem Sttaf
psb T45
Monitor Audio RS6 Silver

Didn't get a chance to listen to the Cambridge Audio 640a.

For those of you who don't know, NAD and Cambridge Audio are two of the leaders in the mid-priced audio segment along with Arcam and Rotel.

Comments on the electronics

* Roksan Kandy combo: quick, clear, dynamic, detailed, analytical, bass weight and warmth not as good as NAD, cool and a little bright

* NAD c372 & c542 combo: powerful, authoritative amp, nice bass weight and power, good warmth, not as quick and clear as Roksan combo

* Parasound P3 + A23 + D3 combo: powerful, dynamic, quick, authoritative bass, clean and clear from the bass through the mids and treble, maybe a little too bright with the MA speakers, nice big 3D soundstage, sexy design

* Cambridge Audio 540R + 840c / 640c combo: not as quick and clear as the Roksan or Parasound combos, about the same or slightly better than NAD... bass weight and power okay, but not as good as Parasound and NAD, soundstaging wasn't as big and 3D as Parasound... 640c not as refined, detailed, or smooth as 840c

Comments on the speakers

* Totem Arro: a little bass shy, not enough weight and warmth

* psb T45: nice image focus, but the soundstage was not very big... could be poor positioning and ancilliary equipment

* Totem Sttaf: nice speaker... dynamic, quick, natural sound, a little bright, good imaging / soundstaging, but expensive

* Monitor Audio RS6: Wow. Dynamic, quick, natural sound, a little bright, good imaging / soundstaging, very nice design, but not as expensive ;)

After all the auditions, I pretty much settled on the Monitor Audio RS6 over the Totem Sttaf as my speaker choice. I was also leaning towards the Cambridge Audio 640a + 640c combo for electronics... but the Parasound Halo combo wouldn't let me forget it.

Being quite a bit more expensive, I was forced to reconsider things. Since the Cambridge Audio, NAD, and Roksan CD players weren't any better than the Music Hall player I have at home, I decided against buying a CDP and will use the Music Hall I have dedicated to my headphone system.

Now I can afford the Parasound pre/power combo and the MA RS6 speakers.

[ddrueding]

Mid-priced. Right. ;)

I assume that means anything short of insanity?

I'm still enjoying my cheap Onkyo system.

[e_dawg]

Well, mid-priced meaning under $1,000 per component usually, which is still within the realm of reasonable. You can get a very nice 2 channel audio system for $3,000, or a very nice home theatre system for $6,000, the big TV, A/V receiver, and 5.1 speaker system representing the bulk of the extra $.

Anyways, I think Merc and company have already alluded to the insanity associated with audiophiles and this kind of stuff. I used to consider myself an audiophile who successfully kicked the habit... maybe I'm just recovering, and suffering a temporary setback ;)

[Stereodude]

Why don't you go budget on an integrated amp? http://www.emotiva.com/bpa1.html

[timwhit]

I auditioned the RS6 also a few weeks ago when my friend was looking at speakers. I found them to be kind of weak on bass. So, unless you are planning on adding a sub-woofer, they might disappoint you. Personally, I don't want to have to have a sub on when listening to music.

[e_dawg]

I auditioned the RS6 also a few weeks ago when my friend was looking at speakers. I found them to be kind of weak on bass. So, unless you are planning on adding a sub-woofer, they might disappoint you. Personally, I don't want to have to have a sub on when listening to music.

I know what you mean... I thought I could have used a bit more bass myself, I don't feel that I would need a sub or that it is lacking in bass... in fact, I find it to be pretty neutral and accurate in its frequency response. A tad brighter spectral balance than I usually prefer, but the overall freq resp is very flat. Certainly much better bass than the NHT 1.3A's I used in the past.

It also depends on the listening environment and equipment used at the time. The auditioning room may be bigger than a typical living room and the electronics may have been voiced to be clear and bright and lack bass (e.g., tried the Totem Sttaf with the Roksan Kandy and NAD systems... they seemed too light in the bass with the Roksan, but had noticeably more and heavier bass with the NAD).

To add some fuel to the fire here, some of the professional reviewers feel that the bass is a strength of the RS6, and at one point, perhaps even a little excessive:




At first, I thought the Monitor Silver RS6 sounded too aggressive, with far too much emphasis in the bass. Although it sounded big and the highs were crystal clear, the bass was muddled, and the presentation lacked depth. As usual, I experimented with placement and found that in order to eliminate the overpowering bass and hear convincing three-dimensional sound, I needed to position the speakers farther from the room boundaries.




The RS6 presented the least colored replication of the lower range of the double bass that I've heard from a speaker at this price point. [...]

I was able to hear each individual vocalist in the choir as a three-dimensional being surrounded by air—but I was most impressed with the realism of the organ-pedal notes. I eagerly await JA's measurements to see how low the unassuming RS6's bass actually extends. [...]

Of all the wonders this loudspeaker produced in my living room, which impressed me the most? First was the bass. I was impressed by the dynamics and the bass extension of which the small-footprint RS6 was capable.

[e_dawg]

Why don't you go budget on an integrated amp? http://www.emotiva.com/bpa1.html

Wow, that looks like quite the deal! I'll keep that in mind for other applications (it would be perfect to hook up to a PC to drive real speakers instead of PC speakers), or for friends / family recommendations.

Basically, I fell in love with the sound of the Parasound P3/A23 + MA RS6 + modded Music Hall CD25 combo. I don't think you could change my mind now unless you put some Krell monoblocks or a Cary tube amp in front of me.

[timwhit]

Well, they certainly didn't have anywhere near the amount of bass as my NHT 2.5i (http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/Reviews/NHT/index.html). Or the speakers that my friend ended up getting, the Rega R5 (http://www.rega.co.uk/html/R5.htm).

This might sound strange, but the RS6 almost sounded too tight, like it would give me a headache after listening to it for too long.

[Stereodude]

In the $1000-1500 price range I would definitely be considering some of the internet direct brands.

[timwhit]

In the $1000-1500 price range I would definitely be considering some of the internet direct brands.

Where can I audition internet direct speakers?

[Stereodude]

Where can I audition internet direct speakers?At an owners house who lives nearby? Some brands also offer free return shipping if you're not satisfied.

[e_dawg]

Well, they certainly didn't have anywhere near the amount of bass as my NHT 2.5i (http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/Reviews/NHT/index.html). Or the speakers that my friend ended up getting, the Rega R5 (http://www.rega.co.uk/html/R5.htm).

This might sound strange, but the RS6 almost sounded too tight, like it would give me a headache after listening to it for too long.

Well, the NHT 2.5 has what amounts to its own internal sub. No question it would have an abundance of bass. Unfortunately, it would be too big (15.5" deep) for my room.

Now the Rega seems interesting. A bit like a junior version of the NHT side-firing sub layout but a more manageable 13.5" of depth and 8.6" wide.

I was drawn to speakers like the Totem Sttaf and the MA RS6 because they are compact towers and I have space restrictions to work with. The RS6 is only 9.8" deep and 7.3" wide (the Sttaf is even smaller than that). Also, being in a condo, neighbours really don't like it when the bass permeates through the walls and sends reverbations that into their units.

I wish I had listened to the R5 in my auditions, as it might be barely doable in terms of size, but come to think of it, I don't know any dealers that carry Rega speakers in my area. In any event, the RS6 is on its way. If the bass performance is underwhelming, I will look around to see if I can audition the Regas.

I know what you mean about the sound. It is definitely very clear, quick, crisp, detailed and open. Not warm, mellow, or smooth. I can see how it could give you a headache after a while, especially if you use it with the wrong components
(e.g., a mediocre CD player). The modded Music Hall I currently use has a custom clock circuit and an all discrete analog stage (no op-amps) that is not as shrill as some of its competition. It makes a big difference.

I was thinking of going with a tube buffered front end at some point (like an outboard Scott Nixon Tube DAC or Shanling T100 tube CD player) which could add just enough weight and warmth and be just the ticket to round out the sound.

[timwhit]

I'm in a fairly small condo myself, around 500 SF. We have thick floors and walls though, so I haven't gotten any complaints yet, and I have been here for close to 2 years. I've had my NHT's for about 7 years now and I am still pretty happy with them. I wonder how long they will last before they start to degrade in sound quality.

[ddrueding]

I wonder how long they will last before they start to degrade in sound quality.

For me that is never the issue. Long before then I "need" something better. ;)

[e_dawg]

Well my previous neighbour was quite annoying with his setup. He must have had a sub along the adjoining wall, 'cause the bass went right through. I think he might have been a DJ or just into electronic keyboards / bass, etc. as he tended to play the same passages over and over again, as if he was practising or trying to loop samples or something. He left after about a year, possibly because of resident complaints. It wasn't so much that the music was too loud sometimes; it was more that his music was too loud at 1-2 AM on weekdays at least once a week every week.

The NHT's should last for quite a while (20 years wouldn't be too much of a stretch). I think the points of failure would be the driver surrounds and the caps in the crossover circuit. Don't know what the driver surrounds are made of in the 2.5's, but the 1.3A used butyl rubber type surrounds that would take a long time to dry out and crack.

Usually, the old foam surrounds would rot or disintegrate, and some of the inferior rubber surrounds would dry out and crack. You would think they try to use the good rubber in NHT's.

The caps, well, you can always replace those with even better quality ones if they die (assuming they don't fry your tweeters or your amp first).

[e_dawg]

In any event, the RS6 is on its way. If the bass performance is underwhelming, I will look around to see if I can audition the Regas.

Hooked up the system on Friday and played it virtually continuously all weekend to break it in. Listened to it and found that there was more than enough bass. Actually, too much bass overall, although could use a touch more extension in the lowest octave. Also found the tweeter a little bright as well. Overall, this speaker could use a bit more energy in the lower midrange... between 200-800 Hz or so. Kinda like the opposite of the B&W DM600 series.

[Stereodude]

Sounds like you "need" a different speaker.

[e_dawg]

It's possible, although every speaker that sounds fine with good recordings (Sheffield, Chesky, Mo-Fi, etc.) sounds bright with mainstream rock/pop/jazz from the major labels. I audition speakers with the best recordings I have, but there is so much more music in my collection that I listen to at home.

I have yet to find a great speaker that is forgiving with crappily produced music. Bose was good for that sort of thing, but when I wanted to "go hi-fi", it wouldn't cut it.

[ddrueding]

A stereo for the office. Looking for a 2-speaker system with Amp. No need for multiple audio sources, no size restrictions. Specifically looking for something that doesn't need a subwoofer to fill in the low/mid range and sounds good at very low volume.

If nothing will work better than a $400 Onkyo HT setup, then I'll get that, but something simpler would be nice.

[ddrueding]

Something is wrong with my center channel speaker, it simply isn't putting out the volume that it should. It is much quieter than the other channels no matter what I do. Perhaps I blew it out?

Anyway, in the market for a new one. The other speakers in the setup are the cheap ones that came with the Onkyo HTIB, but the receiver is a new Onkyo TX-SR507.

Going a step or two up would be nice, but I don't want to overspend (I know, I know).

I know nothing about this, so any advice would be appreciated.

[Stereodude]

I'd try swapping one of your front L or R speakers with the center before you conclude that the speaker is bad.

[MaxBurn]

Hopefully you just changed something on the receiver like center level or a different sound shape to reduce the center.

About 10-15 years ago I got polk speakers, decent ones near top of the line then and they have never let me down and still sound great. Would not hesitate to go top of the line polk again, like their new stuff too.

[fb]

Going a step or two up would be nice, but I don't want to overspend (I know, I know).
I hope your current speakers are fine. But if you're still looking for an upgrade you might want to take a look at Axiom Audio (http://www.axiomaudio.com) or Aperion (http://www.aperionaudio.com). They both make pretty inexpensive speakers that usually gets good reviews.

[P5-133XL]

I've been using paradigm cinema speakers and have been impressed with the sound for the money.

[Howell]

Perhaps I blew it out?


I've never seen a speaker blow anything outside of the cone. And actually that should be the only part you might not be able to replace (though you might be able to buy a replacement whole speaker for the box).

Anyway, if it was the cone that blew you should still get volume but it would be buzzy and unclear at medium to high volumes.

[ddrueding]

It does seem like it is a configuration issue and not the speaker. Playing BR movies works fine, but DVDs lose huge amounts of dialog. It is a complex setup, so I'll investigate further and likely open a new thread. Thank you for the replies, I'll look into a new center channel anyway ;)

[fb]

Have you bought a center speaker yet? If not - a used Linn Trikan (http://cgi.ebay.com/Linn-Trikan-Center-Channel-Speaker-Black-Home-Audio_W0QQitemZ300393830502QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSpea kers_Subwoofers?hash=item45f0de1866#shId) might be worth a look.

[MaxBurn]

Hmm, bi-amped center speaker without the big drivers, now that is something I haven't seen before.

[ddrueding]

Turned out to be a configuration issue. Though I'm now tentatively looking at a complete 5.1 speaker setup. I'll probably start with the fronts and the sub if I don't get them all at once.

[Stereodude]

Steer clear of AV123.

[ddrueding]

Steer clear of AV123.

Will do. Not sure where to look at the moment, nor how much I should be considering spending.

[Handruin]

I would find some local audio stores and just start listening to different speakers. Figure out what you'll use the system mostly for and bring some audio samples you know with you to listen to (movies, CDs, DVD-A).

[timwhit]

If you already have an idea of what you want, check out Audiogon (http://www.audiogon.com). There's lots of nice stuff on there.

My fronts are NHT 2.5i (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1269367692&/NHT-2.5i-Pick-up-in-the-Bay-Ar), I bought them in 2000 and I still love them. I believe I paid around $800 for the pair, they originally MSRPed for $1300 for the pair.

I heard the Anthony Gallo Reference 3.1 (http://www.roundsound.com/reference-3-speakers.htm) speakers a while back at a high end store, they blew me away. If I was looking to drop serious money I would definitely consider them.

[ddrueding]

I would find some local audio stores and just start listening to different speakers. Figure out what you'll use the system mostly for and bring some audio samples you know with you to listen to (movies, CDs, DVD-A).

That will definitely be the route to take if it turns out I'll be spending any significant amount of money. The speakers I have now are the ones that came with my $300 Onkyo HTiB kit a few years ago(1). To be honest, these speakers are just fine for my needs, but need to be allocated elsewhere(2). Buying the same as I have now seems silly, so I am interested in taking one, maybe two steps up. I'm sure Stereodude and Merc will gag, but can $750-$1000 get me 5.1 worth of decent speakers?

(1)I've since upgraded the receiver to one that supports HDMI (and may be upgrading again to one that can actually convert Composite/S-Video to HDMI, but that is another topic).

(2)Unfortunately, my parents are in need of something better than what they have now (my 1997 Cambridge Soundworks 5.1 cubes). They get my leftovers, and they need new speakers, so I need to get new speakers.

[Stereodude]

I guess that's depends on your definition of "decent". :p

Are you really trying to get a subwoofer along with 5 speakers for $750-$1k? The 7 speakers I want for my basement HT are $13.5k (excluding subwoofers).

[timwhit]

I'm sure Stereodude and Merc will gag, but can $750-$1000 get me 5.1 worth of decent speakers?

I think you would be much better off just buying some decent front towers and a center. Skip the sub and the rears until you have more money to spend.

I would also look to buy something used that cost multiple times more when new. Yes, speakers can be damaged and can wear out, but most people that buy high end gear take good care of it.

[ddrueding]

I guess that's depends on your definition of "decent". :p

Are you really trying to get a subwoofer along with 5 speakers for $750-$1k? The 7 speakers I want for my basement HT are $13.5k (excluding subwoofers).

Yup. 5 speakers and a sub for under a grand. Decent in this case refers to something appreciably better than what I have. The set I have now needs to go somewhere else, so I can't just upgrade some of them. I am not opposed to buying used, but know nothing about speakers or where to get them.

[Handruin]

Everyone is going to have their take on what good sounding speakers are. To answer your question, yes, you can get a decent sounding setup for under $1000. I know I'll get snubbed for having Cambridge SoundWorks, but they sound fine. I have a pair of the Model 6 speakers on stands for my sides and a CS Center Stage for the mid. I have a powered (75W) 10" BaseCube 10. My rear speakers are a pair of boston acoustic bookshelf speakers. All are powered by my Yamaha DD 5.1 receiver. The model 6 are about 15 years old, the Boston acoustics are about 18 years old, the Center Stage is about 8 years old and the BaseCube 10 is about 6 years old.

[timwhit]

A used system like this (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1270404700&/Paradigm-monitor-9v4-5.1-syste) would work for you, if you insist on the full 5.1. Just look around at that site, I'm sure you can find something very decent within your budget.

[Howell]

Will do. Not sure where to look at the moment, nor how much I should be considering spending.

No more than $100. That and your normal order of magnitude budget error should keep you pretty safe. : )

[fb]

Hmm, bi-amped center speaker without the big drivers, now that is something I haven't seen before.
You can run almost all Linn speakers in single/bi-wired/bi-amped or active configurations, on the pretty new ones like the Trikan you just change to another link board around the terminals and you're set. :)

My home cinema dream (within a reasonable budget) is actually the Trikan with Ninkas as fronts and Katans as rear channels and one used Linn 5125 amplifier... And perhaps one Polk DSW 500 (http://reviews.cnet.com/subwoofers/polk-audio-dsw-pro/4505-11312_7-32592177.html) as sub - they are supposed to be very good for the price.

[ddrueding]

My wife has voiced her...concern...over the size and appearance of some of the speakers I'm looking at. What are people's thoughts on in-wall/in-ceiling speakers/subs? This (compromising with her) is one of the ways I can grow my budget.

[ddrueding]

Yeah, just filled a Crutchfield cart with $3300 worth of Artison stuff...that isn't going to fly, ever.

[MaxBurn]

You can run almost all Linn speakers in single/bi-wired/bi-amped or active configurations, on the pretty new ones like the Trikan you just change to another link board around the terminals and you're set. :)

My home cinema dream (within a reasonable budget) is actually the Trikan with Ninkas as fronts and Katans as rear channels and one used Linn 5125 amplifier... And perhaps one Polk DSW 500 (http://reviews.cnet.com/subwoofers/polk-audio-dsw-pro/4505-11312_7-32592177.html) as sub - they are supposed to be very good for the price.

Yeah but I thought the whole point was to separate out the bass frequencies from dirtying up the treble like is very common now in the main speakers now. I guess this is just taking that a step further and I shouldn't be surprised, just the first I have seen it.

ddrueding, check into some vintage stuff people are upgrading all the time and selling the old stuff. I am still using some polk studio monitor 12 series 2 mains and love them. Paired them up with a CS245 and four RT25 and a PSW450 for home theater use. I can't imagine they are worth much if I were to sell them.

[Stereodude]

My wife has voiced her...concern...over the size and appearance of some of the speakers I'm looking at. What are people's thoughts on in-wall/in-ceiling speakers/subs? This (compromising with her) is one of the ways I can grow my budget.Put on the pants and get what you want. ;)

The short version is that In wall speakers basically suck unless you spend a lot of money on high end (read expensive / well out of your budget) in wall speakers. Here's an example (http://www.polkaudio.com/customaudio/inwall.php) of a decent in walls.

[Mercutio]

You probably can get decent speakers for $750 if you're willing to buy used ones off ebay, ddrueding. That requires a bit of a leap of faith that the person who owned them didn't abuse them, but even at that, expensive speakers can be repaired.

I'm slowly working on getting a set of non-reference Kef speakers for my bedroom set. So far I've managed to buy a big center channel (iq60c) and two of the four iq30s I need, and I've only spent about $380 including all the shipping, which is maybe 1/3 of the retail price.

[fb]

"It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission"

No, but seriously, I agree with MaxBurn, getting vintage stuff is probably the best solution.

[Pradeep]

http://www.svsound.com/products-spks-scs01.cfm

They also have a larger speaker series.

I have a PC-Ultra sub, it's quite a performer.

[Pradeep]

Didn't realize they are introducing an in-wall line (wifey approved!).

http://www.svsound.com/products/2_SVS_Artisan&800RCES10Web.pdf

[Stereodude]

The AS-MT2 are very inefficient though. The AS-MTM2 are a bit better, but still may be low depending on how loud ddrueding plans to listen.

[ddrueding]

Thanks for all the advice so far. It looks like I will be trying to acquire some Polk in-wall speakers via eBay as I can. I suspect I'll be looking at the TCi and not the LCi, but compromises are what they are. I'm currently battling to get an RS4, so I can let this slide.

[fb]

My tip: Get a GMC Pacer instead of the RS4 and get this (http://linn.co.uk/klimax_movie_system) movie system instead. That's what I would do anyway. :)

[timwhit]

My tip: Get a GMC Pacer instead of the RS4 and get this (http://linn.co.uk/klimax_movie_system) movie system instead. That's what I would do anyway. :)

The speakers will last much longer too.

[Pradeep]

The AS-MT2 are very inefficient though. The AS-MTM2 are a bit better, but still may be low depending on how loud ddrueding plans to listen.

Well if effortless loudness on a couple of Watts is what you are after a quintet of Klipshorns would do the job.

[ddrueding]

I have Klipsch at the office, and I do like them.

[timwhit]

I would rather jam a q-tip into my brain than ever listen to Klipsch speakers again.

[ddrueding]

I don't really understand this whole thing. I know that many people don't like Klipsch because of "Horn-loaded tweeters" or something. No idea what that means, or what the deal is. What I like about them is that they sound good down to really low volume.

[Stereodude]

It had to do with the characteristic sound of a horn (which isn't really a characteristic of a well designed horn, but more the way Klipsch designed them to sound). If you're talking about Klipsch PC speakers I'm not sure they have the real Klipsch characteristic sound.

Klipsch actually made some good speakers not too long ago that didn't have their characteristic sound and were actually good sounding speakers. The problem was that they didn't end up appealing to anyone. Klipsch lovers didn't like the sound, and the portion of the people who didn't like the old Klipsch sound were scared off because they were still Klipsch and horns and didn't consider them (never listening to them).

[Stereodude]

My tip: Get a GMC Pacer instead of the RS4 and get this (http://linn.co.uk/klimax_movie_system) movie system instead. That's what I would do anyway. :)Wasn't it an AMC Pacer?

[Mercutio]

So do a $100 set of Logitech speakers.

[LunarMist]

Wasn't it an AMC Pacer?

:lol: Better driving than a Gremlin though.

[Handruin]

Do any of you like psb speakers (http://www.psbspeakers.com/)? I was into them many years back but haven't kept up to date with them. There is a local audio shop that sells them near me. I'm thinking of going over for a listen.

[fb]

Wasn't it an AMC Pacer?

Yes, it was. :oops:

[MaxBurn]

Certainly are different speakers for people that like different sounds, myself I like the classic polk soft dome tweeter. I happen to know some of their range so just for kicks:

Polk series 5 $36
http://cgi.ebay.com/PAIR-OF-POLK-AUDIO-MONITOR-SERIES-5-BOOKSHELF-SPEAKERS_W0QQitemZ260547727940QQcmdZViewItemQQptZS peakers_Subwoofers?hash=item3ca9dad244

Series 7 $100
http://cgi.ebay.com/Polk-Audio-7-Monitor-Series-Speakers-High-End-Rare_W0QQitemZ320485580417QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSpeak ers_Subwoofers?hash=item4a9e6dde81

I would hold out for the 10's or 12's like I have but the audiophiles seem to snatch them up darn quick.

CS245 center $45
http://cgi.ebay.com/POLK-AUDIO-CS245-CENTRAL-CHANNEL-SPEAKER_W0QQitemZ360233560556QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSp eakers_Subwoofers?hash=item53df97e9ec

One RT-25 shelf speaker for wide or surround. Makes you wonder where the rest went. Overpriced at $39.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Polk-Audio-Single-Shelf-Speaker-RT-25_W0QQitemZ140382211561QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSpeaker s_Subwoofers?hash=item20af6e8de9

10" Subwoofer PSW450 $89
http://cgi.ebay.com/NICE-Polk-Audio-10-Subwoofer-PSW450_W0QQitemZ390153150428QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSpe akers_Subwoofers?hash=item5ad6f09fdc

All that is just right now, I bet with some time I could put something together for very little money using top end vintage stuff with a budget of say $800.

[fb]

Another alternative is to get just two channel sound. Two good speakers should be better than five or six less good ones. I get plenty of 3D sound from my >10 year old Linn Tukans (http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/679/)...

And don't upgrade the receiver unless it's really necessary. Conversion from component to HDMI can only degrade the signal, maybe it's worth it if you only want one cable between the receiver and TV/projector but I can't see any other use. It's only expensive in the long run to buy new cheap stuff every year or so. Before you know it you've spent $3000 on crap that you could just as well have spent on one good receiver or 7.1 pre-amplifier that will last at least 10-15 years. That's how I'm reasoning when buying stereo equipment, I don't know if it's right or wrong.

[Mercutio]

And don't upgrade the receiver unless it's really necessary. Conversion from component to HDMI can only degrade the signal, maybe it's worth it if you only want one cable between the receiver and TV/projector but I can't see any other use.

Full quality sound from BluRay discs requires HDMI. I don't spend enough time watching BDs for it to matter to me yet, and none of my receivers do HDMI anyway, but I'm aware my setup is less than optimal for that.

[MaxBurn]

Also many people are considering media players that can pass TrueHD or DTS HD-MA quality streams through HDMI and I am thinking that a lot of those players don't exactly put much value in a quality preamp level output, if they even offer analog output. In that case I would much prefer to go coax or optical and let the player strip the core audio for 5.1 or play the 5.1 track.

I didn't go that route but I could have, I just choose to go with the receiver for the HD audio plus a whole ton of other goodies.

[fb]

Full quality sound from BluRay discs requires HDMI. I don't spend enough time watching BDs for it to matter to me yet, and none of my receivers do HDMI anyway, but I'm aware my setup is less than optimal for that.
I understand, I'm not against HDMI. It's just that I (maybe mis)understood it like ddrueding might upgrade the receiver to one that could convert composite and S-video to HDMI. Of course it's no problem if it comes with an otherwise great receiver, but I don't think it should be a major factor when taking the decision since extra signal conversions is against my religious beliefs. ;)

Another thing, I just remembered Scandyna (http://www.scandyna-speakers.com/), their speakers should have a high WAF and the sound is also supposed to be pretty good.

[ddrueding]

I have made basically my entire system HDMI, except the Wii and the VCR, which I can't. I don't want to run extra cables all the way up to the ceiling-mounted projector, and use an extra remote just for them.

[fb]

I almost thought so, I hope it works fine. I guess you'll have the possibility to upscale the content in the receiver too, it might be nice. :)

I just saw something that so far looks like a great deal on ebay, Linn Sizmik 10.25 subwoofer (http://cgi.ebay.com/Linn-Sizmik-10-25-10-Subwoofer-Active-Bass-Black_W0QQitemZ300393821851QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSpea kers_Subwoofers?hash=item45f0ddf69b).

Here's a review (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/0601/linnkatansizmik.htm) of the sub.

[ddrueding]

So is this (http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=HT-RC160&class=Receiver&p=i) the cheapest Onkyo receiver that will take whatever I give it and convert it to HDMI?

I would also love to have it output to two HDMI sources simultaneously (A splitter, not a matrix), but it looks like it would be cheaper to buy a separate splitter.

[MaxBurn]

On the receiver can you stretch a bit and get the 180 for the Faroudja DCDi CINEMA with 1080p upscaling and THX Select2 Plus?

[ddrueding]

Stretch a bit? It is 45% more!

Yes, I probably can. Is it really worth it?

[MaxBurn]

I thought so, this is how I got mine so see if this deal is any good still:

http://slickdeals.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1789604
http://www.6ave.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=ONKHTRC180

I can answer questions on the 180 as I have it here.

[ddrueding]

I can answer questions on the 180 as I have it here.

That strikes me as a vote of confidence.

[Pradeep]

There are receivers coming on the market with HDMI 1.4 and likely 2 outputs.

http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-news/av-receiver-news/pioneer-debuts-3d-capable-hdmi-1.4-compatible-entry-level-receivers.html

Entry level with 1.4 @ @229.

Personally I have the Pioneer 1018 (1.3), works great with the PS3.

In the mid range there should be dual output 1.4 receivers in that price range. Given your penchant for high resolutions, the 4K support seems like a future proof no brainer.

[ddrueding]

Yup, 4k and 3D support make a lot of sense if I'm spending over a grand. If I wait until we are in the house and the low voltage conduit is in place, that gives me about 6 months. That should be enough time for some 1.4 stuff to enter the market.

[Stereodude]

Steer clear of AV123.Here's why (http://www.audioholics.com/news/industry-news/av123-mark-schifter-indicted-grand-jury) I made that suggestion previously. :eekers:

[Handruin]

Wow, that guy has some serious charges against him. What a douche bag for taking donation money for himself.

[Stereodude]

Yeah, I got played for sucker along with a lot of other people. :crap:

[Handruin]

Sorry to hear that. I hope he takes it in the pooper in jail.

[Pradeep]

http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3044980#1

250W-HF, 500W-Mid, 1000W-LF, triple active amps.

One day. 7 of them. Starting with the center.

Downsides: 115 lbs won't work on top of my RPTV :)

Positives: Inevitably that means projection, I prefer an acoustically transparent screen and the sound coming out of the picture.

[Stereodude]

I love the Catalyst 12's. They're a little too rich for my blood at $3500 each. Thankfully Mark is coming out with a somewhat more budget friendly scaled down version that I will be using for the front 3 speakers in my HT.

[ddrueding]

Thinking of getting a pair of good speakers for my birthday. These would be the front right/left of the home theater system, and I was considering Polk LSi9 (eBay, ~$700/pair). Unfortunately, the cabinetry that they will be going into was only going to be 12" deep. Are there good bang/buck speakers in that price range that will fit in that cabinet? Is looking for a good speaker that is less than 12" deep unreasonable?

[ddrueding]

Looks like the LSi7 is 10.25" deep (http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/lsi/index.php?s=lsi7). That might be where I go.

[Stereodude]

Rule #1 is that you don't put speakers inside cabinetry if you care about good sound.

[ddrueding]

The cabinetry will be custom built with spots for the speakers. Where do you stick them if not on a shelf?

[timwhit]

The cabinetry will be custom built with spots for the speakers. Where do you stick them if not on a shelf?

Out in the open, standing on the floor.

[Stereodude]

The cabinetry will be custom built with spots for the speakers. Where do you stick them if not on a shelf?timwhit pretty much got it right. Putting a speaker inside another opening leads to drastic changes in the baffle response since you get reflections from the cabinetry if the cabinetry extends past the front face of the speaker. A shelf wouldn't necessarily be too bad assuming the shelf was very small and didn't expend past the bottom of the speaker, but then you still have the impact of having the speaker so close to the back wall which can lead to too much emphasis on the bass. On stands you can solve that simply by adjusting the distance from the wall, but when you're using a shelf you're sorta stuck.

[ddrueding]

Having speakers that sit in the room on their own isn't an option aesthetically. I can have them built in to the cabinet, flush to the face, or I can put them in the ceiling like the surrounds will be.

[LunarMist]

Out in the open, standing on the floor.

That is how we always did in the olden days. The speaker/enclosures are designed by the manufacturer to be decoupled from the environment unless it a custom (rather expensive) design. In that case you might want input from a professional engineer. ;)

[MaxBurn]

Even sitting on the floor simply changing the speaker distance from the wall changes their sound, surely everyone has experimented with that

[Pradeep]

Having speakers that sit in the room on their own isn't an option aesthetically. I can have them built in to the cabinet, flush to the face, or I can put them in the ceiling like the surrounds will be.

Basically this theatre has chosen form over function. Compromised as it were. When picking speakers for this setup, go with what looks pretty. Because putting a speaker cabinet inside another cabinet is going to discolour the sound of any higher end speaker, so might as well get something that fulfills one of the constraints.

[Stereodude]

He might as well go with in wall speakers which are at least designed to be put in a compromising acoustic position.

[ddrueding]

Basically this theatre has chosen form over function. Compromised as it were. When picking speakers for this setup, go with what looks pretty. Because putting a speaker cabinet inside another cabinet is going to discolour the sound of any higher end speaker, so might as well get something that fulfills one of the constraints.

Some compromise is necessary, as it is the living room and not a dedicated theater. That doesn't mean I don't want something that sounds good within the envelope that has been defined by my wife. And putting the speakers on shelves is nothing compared to the obstacle that is the shape of the room; it is completely open on the right side (image attached).

[Stereodude]

Well, at least your not putting a TV over the fireplace.

[LunarMist]

Why not? I have a TV in the fireplace. :mrgrn: