VCR Substitutes

[GIANT]

. .
I am aware of TiVo and that other video recorder thingee with a hard drive that's just like a TiVo, but competition.

What I DO like about these two machines is that they can record dozens of hours of television broadcast material unattended and not use videotapes.

What I DON'T like about a TiVo and that other video recorder thingee is the ridiculous monthly fee that you are REQUIRED to pay, not to mention the telephone connection that you are REQUIRED to have in order for these two video recorders to function.

All I want is something like a TiVo that I can MANUALLY program, DOESN'T need to be connected to a telephone outlet or a network connection, and DOESN'T require a subscription.

Is there something on the horizon that can do what I want, something that uses a hard drive and not videotape, and can record at least 10 hours (hopefully closer to about 30 hours)? I once heard a rumour that the next M$ X-Box will be able to record video, but I would imagine that it just might require a subscription to MSN.


. .

[timwhit]

Why not build a computer that would do this? This way you get as much HD space as you need. Throw one of them AIW cards in there or a cheap capture card. There is software that will let you program what stations to record. I just can't remember what it is called.

I think there was an article on /. about building one of these a week back or so. Using Linux of course...

[flagreen]

What kind of codec does TiVo use? It seems to me if you want the quality to be such that you can play-back your recordings on your TV set you are going to need an extremely high compression codec. Otherwise you won't be able to record much time wise.

[Mercutio]

The ATI 7x00 and 8500 All-in-Wonder cards can take programming info from ATI's web site. That's free. 500GB of storage and a 7500 AIW is only $700 or so...

TiVo doesn't *HAVE* to be connected to a phone line, AFAIK. You don't get the program guide or TiVo programming picks. That might have changed in software updates, though.

I'm pretty sure TiVo encodes low-bit-rate MPEG-2 for video and MPEG1 layer 2 audio for audio.

There's also a settop box that records straight to DVD-R, but think it's limited to 3 or 4 hours of video.

[James]

TiVo doesn't *HAVE* to be connected to a phone line, AFAIK. You don't get the program guide or TiVo programming picks. That might have changed in software updates, though.

It complains a lot if you do this, though, and you lose quite a lot of functionality. If you use a unit running 1.3 software the nags are not nearly as annoying as in 2.0.5 or 2.5.1.

I'm pretty sure TiVo encodes low-bit-rate MPEG-2 for video and MPEG1 layer 2 audio for audio.

Yes. It uses about 2.2GB per hour in its "best" setting (which I find to be nigh on indistinguishable from the source).

I think you'd be hard pressed to surpass the ease of use of a TiVo with a PC solution at the moment. I got my (reconditioned) 14 hour one for USD140 plus shipping (thanks Bill!) - a bargain really. A 40GB drive to upgrade it to 54 hours was less than USD100, and the upgrade process was pretty painless.

The only minus point with the TiVo is that the sound compression algorithm seems to discard the surround tracks in an incoming Dolby Prologic signal (XFiles and so on) so you only get stereo. If you can live with this, it's a good solution - quiet, cheap and easy to integrate into your A/V rack.

[GIANT]

. .
Why not build a computer that would do this?...

I definitely would not want to have to do this with a general-purpose computer. I would MUCH rather have a TiVo-like device; far more convenient and less expensive.

True, the TiVo is just a box that runs customised Linux and uses the embedded version of the Motorola PPC processor. But, they've done all that wonderful work with firmware to elimate "the computer" part of the device.


. .

[GIANT]

. .
...I think you'd be hard pressed to surpass the ease of use of a TiVo with a PC solution at the moment. Ah... took the word from me mouth! I would not want yet another computer around the house. My better half has long complained about the 2 computers and the 20+ guitars, 4 amplifiers, so...

However, I could compromise on this ONLY if there was the ideal little pie-in-the-sky USB device that could act as a "video contoller" which interfaced to a x86 CPU running Windows or something that was capable of recording composite NTSC video. Then, and only then, would I consider a general-purpose computer -- preferably something in a very slim desktop (flat) chassis, like an old PS/2 chassis was.



I got my (reconditioned) 14 hour one for USD140 plus shipping (thanks Bill!) - a bargain really. A 40GB drive to upgrade it to 54 hours was less than USD100, and the upgrade process was pretty painless. I was considering a reconditioned 30-hour Philips unit for about US$240. I'm pretty sure this one is not running the old V1.3 software, where you supposedly could do just like what I wanted -- manually timed recording without dealing TiVo Incorporated and their subscription service.


. .

[flagreen]

I capture A/V in two ways on my Dual xeon box. I have a Xtasy GF4 with VIVO and use Virtualdub to capture while encoding in DIVX 5.0 (Beautiful Quality - Decent Compression) and Audio to MP3. This all done in real time with just a svideo cable and audio cable input. I also can capture with my Sony media converter which converts analog to DV. This is connected to my DV200 card (firewire card basically) using Premier 6.1. Both ways work well but the Premier / Sony setup only captures in DV and the compression is not very high at all although the quality is hard to beat.

[James]

I was considering a reconditioned 30-hour Philips unit for about US$240. I'm pretty sure this one is not running the old V1.3 software, where you supposedly could do just like what I wanted -- manually timed recording without dealing TiVo Incorporated and their subscription service.

You need a machine that started life as a 1.3 box (even if it was later upgraded to 2.0.5 or 2.5.1) to get a useful manual recording functionality. Machines that started off as 2.0 or later won't do manual recording.

With TiVos it's so easy to add hard drives that I reckon for $100 less getting a smaller TiVo unit like the HDR112 + a new <$100 5400RPM drive is a better deal.

If you need a 1.3 TiVo image there is a site to download it from. You'll really need broadband or a decent office connection to download it, it's about 350MB. Otherwise, I'm happy to burn it onto CD for you and mail it.

[Pradeep]

ATI AIW Radeon 7500 and 80GB drive. 30-40 hours of recording. In the USA it works with the GemStar GuidePlus+ software provided and you can select which programs you want to record. MPEG 2 encoding at DVD res takes about 30% cpu for me. Dolby pro-logic is encoded correctly. With the included RF remote, you can pause live TV or record from your lounge chair. Maybe get a mini PC case and small ATX mobo that can handle AGP. But if you don't want a PC then this option is out.

[James]

The other minus point of the PC system is the cost; here in Australia the cost of the ATI AIW 7500 card by itself is pretty much what I paid for the TiVo including shipping.

[Mercutio]

The radio remote control/mouse makes it worthwhile. :)

With my ATI VIVO and as much storage as I have (1.3TB online at the moment), I can record whatever the heck I want (of course, I'd have to have a lot more interest in the one TV channel I get before I'd want to record 1300GB of video, too).
Try THAT with a TiVo.

My personal AV wishlist is for a truly universal remote that doesn't cost a small fortune. Gads what a hassle all these remotes are. Maybe something I could plug into a USB port and upgrade from online. That would be cool.

[Pradeep]

You only get one TV channel? I guess if it was of the appropriate "category" it would be sufficient ;)

[Mercutio]

While Fox has, at times, bordered on the permanently lurid, the truth is, I'm too cheap to pay $40/month for cable.

[Sol]

The other minus point of the PC system is the cost; here in Australia the cost of the ATI AIW 7500 card by itself is pretty much what I paid for the TiVo including shipping.


Some of MSI's GForce2 cards come with super VHS in now - could be cheeper than an ATI AIW 7500.

[Mercutio]

The quality of recorded video on nvidia cards, and I say this after an objective evaluation of it, doesn't look as good as what comes off an ATI. It's certainly comparable with most of the Brooktree-based cards I've seen, but I think ATI and Matrox have the better solutions for inexpensive vidcap.

Creative has a hardware-based MPEG2 encoder for $100. There was a story on slashdot.org about it. Usual flakey Creative sottware, but apparently it records video pretty well.

[Pradeep]

Is there really a need for hardware based mpeg2 capture in this day of very high performance cpus?

[James]

If you're intending to do anything to that stream in real time, certainly there is.

[Mercutio]

Heck, if you'd like to use your PC while you're capping an on-board encoder is a really good idea.

[timwhit]

This thread gave me the idea that I want to start capping my own TV shows. What is the cheapest solution that will give me good results? I will be storing the video is MPEG1/VCD format (352x240@29.97fps).

The source will be regular cable TV.

What would the experts here reccomend for this?

[Pradeep]

Well I'm at about 35% util when capping at DVD res. I guess it's one of those times when dual 1.47 XPs come in handy :D Now HDTV on the other hand..... but they have special cards for those.

[Mercutio]

Any of the new ATI VIVO or AIW cards. The Expert line captures to an ATI-proprietary format, but the Rage and the Radeons can do adjustable-quality video capture.

[timwhit]

Any of the new ATI VIVO or AIW cards. The Expert line captures to an ATI-proprietary format, but the Rage and the Radeons can do adjustable-quality video capture.

I would rather not replace my video card. It is a Geforce2 GTS 32MB and it works fine for what I use it for. I was more looking for an add-on card that has a TV tuner because I don't have room for my VCR next to my computer. And I would like to capture to a fairly standard format.

If the solutions with an integrated TV tuner suck then what would you suggest?

[timwhit]

Has anyone used the ATI TV-Wonder or TV-Wonder VE? It seems the only difference is that the VE doesn't have a stereo TV-Tuner or an S-Video input.

Would the quality be equal to the AIW cards?

Both these cards are supposed to have Real-time MPEG-2 compression, is this processor dependent or is all the compression done on the card?

[Pradeep]

I would imagine it would be like the AIW cards, i.e processor dependent. There was a leaflet with my AIW 7500 saying a p3 700? was sufficient for dvd quality. For mpeg1 anything over 400MHz should be fine.

[i]

I've used both the ATI TV Wonder and the ATI TV Wonder VE ("Value Edition").

Do NOT buy the "VE" version. (Avoid the USB version too.)

Spend the little bit extra and get the genuine TV Wonder. It's great! I've been using one for years, albeit for mostly basic stuff. I also find it nice that it works in tandem with a pre-existing video card (note: I've only ever used it in conjunction with ATI video cards, although I know they say it will work with many other cards, and have in fact seen other people getting it to do just that - check their list of compatible cards first to be sure). The fact that it's a separate card allows for easier video upgrades in the future - something I've already done twice. Besides, for computer equipment, I generally subscribe to the, "right tool for the right job," or the, "jack of all trades master of none," theory. The graphics card controls the graphics ... if you want to play with TV signals, you use a TV card. That's how I always looked at it anyway.

[i]

Sorry, I should have said why I have a grudge against the VE card.

I wound up dealing with one at my previous place of employment. I had asked for the full version card, but my supervisor made a mistake in the ordering (as usual), or the purchasing department screwed us over (also as usual), or both (highly probable). Anyway, we wound up with a VE card, and I had no choice but to use it.

I installed it in an old P133, under Windows 95 OSR2. This was just last summer, by the way. The system was dedicated to monitoring the video feed from a new security camera. This should not have been a difficult thing to do. In fact, the full version of the ATI TV Wonder we had been using on a different camera had been performing the exact same role - on an identical system - with no problems at all.

Not so for the VE. First off, with the minimal processing power available I was dismayed to find that the VE capture formats were extremely limited (it might have handled MPEG-2, but I think that was all it could handle - it was certainly limited compared to the full version card). The other formats the full version card offered had been much better because a few of them had required only minimal system resources. Beyond that, the video software crashed immediately on every launch with one of those old "Cancel / Ignore" errors you've rarely seen since Windows 3.x. If you clicked "Ignore" a dozen or so times, eventually the display would come up. It was horrifically unstable though ... the video software would eventually lock up and the system had to be rebooted at least once a week. And all it was doing was sitting there, with only the one task running, displaying a full-screen, relatively static video image. That was all we were asking it to do.

The full version of the ATI TV Wonder had absolutely no problems doing that - on an identical P133/Win95 system. I'd had good experiences with an ATI TV Wonder card for two years at home, too. But the VE card ... well, let's just say I didn't like it.

[timwhit]

Thanks for the advice. I will probably go with the non-VE because I want to be able to capture in stereo anyways.

I also feel the same way about jack of all trade cards. I had an AIW Pro back several years ago and I paid nearly $300 for it. But as soon as I wanted to upgrade my video card it was utterly useless and wasn't worth anything to me anymore. That is why I will never buy another integrated solution.

[timwhit]

I just borrowed a TV-Wonder VE from my roomate, he said I can borrow it for a month because he isn't using it anymore. So I will get so see how it performs.

The board is a lot smaller than the full non-VE version. What kind of extra chips does the non-VE have that the VE doesn't have?

[i]

Yes, now that you mention it, I remember the size difference.

I tried to grab an image of my full-version card via a Logitech QuickCam (seeing as how you know what the VE card looks like now), but the image was way too blurry to be of any use.

So I took the card out of the computer (I'm using a secondary system right now anyway) and decided to run it through the flat-bed scanner. Hee hee. Maybe next I'll try running it through the dishwasher. :)

Anyway, the scanner worked pretty well. Except I've got absolutely no decent image software on this system. Right now it's a 6.5 Mb TIF file. Unless you've got somewhere I can FTP you a copy, I don't think there's much I can do with it.

[timwhit]

I saw images of both the cards on the ATI site. I was just wondering if you or anyone else knows what the chips on the non-VE card do. I assume that they provide some kind of hardware MPEG-2 compression but I may be wrong.

[Mercutio]

You'd actually be amazed what you can do with MS Word or Works, if you have those.

Personally I relegate Vidcap as a secondary task, anyway, like CD-burning. If I felt any need to have a faster video card, I'd certainly replace the Rage VIVO in my game machine. I'm still waiting for the right excuse to move into one of the Radeon-based units for myself, although I've installed a couple now in other people's machines.

I also see a lot of flexibility in having an ATI VIVO + a VCR instead of AIW straight to cable. I don't know if anyone has considered that. VIVO is only short a tuner and a remote from the much more expensive AIW.

Probably, that Creative card (which encodes to a Creative proprietary format in 32MB chunks, but can be converted to MPEG2) would work just fine for y'all looking for a PCI solution.

I personally avoid MPEG2 because I'd rather edit in nice, flexible Virtualdub, which only deals with .AVIs and MPEG-1 video.

[timwhit]

I have considered a VCR + capture card. But the ATI TV-Wonder PCI only costs about $60. And I want to keep my VCR next to my TV. What I am trying to accomplish here is capturing to MPEG1 and burning to VCD, so I can watch it on my DVD player.

[i]

You'd actually be amazed what you can do with MS Word or Works, if you have those.

Thanks Mercutio! That was a good suggestion. However, I use neither MS Word or MS Works because they both celebrate the existence of Satan.

What I do use is StarOffice ... and once again it's completely surprised me! Your suggestion really played out well there - it turns out StarOffice was able to read in the TIF with no problems, and not only had the capacity to re-save the image into any one of 10 different formats, but to edit the image itself, and change the compression ratio (where applicable) upon saving. Sun's StarOffice continues to really impress me! I will absolutely buy a copy of V6.0 when it comes out later this summer.

If anyone cares to see a hi-res scan of the card, I've temporarily stuck it here (http://qlink.queensu.ca/~3rdp2/ati_tv_wonder.jpg).

[timwhit]

I got the card installed. I tried capturing and it seems to work well except I was dropping a few frames if I tried to do anything else at the same time. So I tried to change the task priority to high but the damn ATI software locked up. I finally got it to run at high and and it doesn't drop frames anymore.

Is there a software TV guide I can use in conjunction with this card so I can schedule it to record shows?

[James]

This thread gave me the idea that I want to start capping my own TV shows. What is the cheapest solution that will give me good results? I will be storing the video is MPEG1/VCD format (352x240@29.97fps).

The source will be regular cable TV.

What would the experts here reccomend for this?

A TiVo (14hr reconditioned one is USD140 plus s&h, the network card is USD75). You can pull the files off the TiVo through the network card - the app that does the extraction also converts it to standard MPEG2 video. Then all you need to do is re-encode it as a VCD.

As mentioned above, make sure you get a 1.3 model of TiVo and don't plug it in to the phone.

[timwhit]

I already have a TV card that I can use, so I think I am going to keep on using it as long as I can (I just hope my roomate forgets about it).

It captures directly to VCD format which is very nice. And then I can cut out the commercials with TMPGenc and burn to VCD. It should work out nicely. I will never miss a show on History Channel again (it's my favorite channel).

[timwhit]

That ATI sofware is kinda flakey. If I'm capturing, I can't seem to bring up the task manager without killing the capture. And then the ATI TV software crashes.

So is there any better software that will control one of these ATI cards and allow me to capture?

[James]

So is there any better software that will control one of these ATI cards and allow me to capture?
I don't think you mentioned what OS you're using. If you're in Win98 and can use a VFW driver, Virtualdub might be a good option (I don't know, I haven't tried it on the card you're using). If you need something that captures from a WDM driver (because you're running ME, 2000 or XP), that's trickier.

[timwhit]

I'm running 2k.

[Pradeep]

Try descaler:

http://www.dscaler.org/

It tends to only work on Brooktree based encoder cards.

[timwhit]

I tried DScaler and it works well for just watching but it has very limited capture abilities.

The biggest problem that I have run into is audio sync problems after frames have been dropped. Here is what I do.

1) Capture in MPEG-1/VCD format.
2) Use TMPGenc to merge & cut the MPG so that there are no commercials.
3) When I play the new MPG back there are problems with audio/video sync at points where frames have been dropped.

The original file is fine, I only run into problems when I cut parts out. Id there anyway to avoid this?

[Mercutio]

The easy fix is a program called Terrabits (Terabits? Don't remember) Avi Editor.

Terabits will let you make micro-scale changes to your AVI's framerate, which can fix those silly audio problems. I drop a couple of frames in every hour of cap, and usually have to make a micro-change from 29.997 fps to something like 29.9965 fps.

Of course, that doesn't work if you're dealing with an MPEG or you're wanting to convert to a VCD. There are other ways to fix the problem in that case, but they're complicated and time consuming, which is why I cap MPEG destined to become .AVI files.

[Mercutio]

Terabits AVI Information.

Sorry.

[timwhit]

So, what would be a solution if I want to get my video in MPEG1 format after all is said and done?

I increased the task priority of the ATI software to realtime and it seems to lose a lot less frames. But is there anyway that I can tell for sure if I have lost frames?

[Mercutio]

Using any recent ATI card to cap, you shouldn't be losing more than a hand's worth of frames in a capture of anything up to 4MB/sec, unless you're sitting there doodling around on the PC while you cap.

The best thing to do is to open the video in something like Virtualdub that displays the number of frames, then doing some math.

Here's something for you to read, timwhit. (http://nickyguides.digital-digest.com/audio-synch.htm)

[Pradeep]

So, what would be a solution if I want to get my video in MPEG1 format after all is said and done?

I increased the task priority of the ATI software to realtime and it seems to lose a lot less frames. But is there anyway that I can tell for sure if I have lost frames?

When you start capture, and the little capture rectangle comes up with the name of the file you are capturing to. Right click on the elapsed time text, then choose "Show total frames"

[Splash]

..··
You need a machine that started life as a 1.3 box (even if it was later upgraded to 2.0.5 or 2.5.1) to get a useful manual recording functionality. Machines that started off as 2.0 or later won't do manual recording...

...If you need a 1.3 TiVo image there is a site to download it from. You'll really need broadband or a decent office connection to download it, it's about 350MB. Otherwise, I'm happy to burn it onto CD for you and mail it.

Thanks James for the offer to send a "downgrade" (i.e. -- upgrade!) CD-R, but, I think I'll wait another few years. Maybe, JUST MAYBE, there'll be at last a hassle-free no-subscription manually-controlled video hard drive recorder on the market in the next few years, produced possibly by some maverick like Samsung or even Microsoft.



..··

[GIANT]

Well, it's now 2004.

Are there any "generic" TiVo-like devices around (hard drive based) yet? I keep hearing they are close.

What I want is a small manually-operated manually-programmed hard drive based digital video recorder. Simple simple simple. No subscriptions, no phone line connections, and definitely no computer systems involved.

[Howell]

Well at least they do exist though not exactly what you were looking for. And then there is the price.

Samsung DVD-H40E (http://www.samsung.com/Products/DVDPlayer/DVDHDDRecorder/DVDPlayer_DVDHDDRecorder_DVD_H40E.htm)

Panasonic DMR-E100H (http://www.audiorevolution.com/news/0703/15.panasonic.shtml)

Panasonic DMR-T3040 (http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?displayTab=O&storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=68698&catGroupId=14621&modelNo=DMR-T3040&surfModel=DMR-T3040)

http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvr/

[Pradeep]

I got all excited and thought James had returned, till I saw the 2002 post date.

There are some DVD recordable/HDD combo units that have Tivo Basic, no monthly sub cost and you get three days of listings I believe. Personally I'm going to stick another 200GB drive in my Replay 5040, with the networking built-in archiving to PC is a breeze. $9.95 a month is worth it for me to have al my favourites recorded. Now I can get my locals with Dish I'll prob go with one of their DVR decoder boxes.

[time]

The DGStation relook-3000 (http://www.dgstation.co.kr/product/2-1-feature.php) is a PVR with twin digital tuners available in TV, cable and satellite models. There is also a single tuner analog model if you check the website.

Advanced Features LINUX O/S
Max. Two Channels Recording and one Prerecorded Program Playback
Ultimate Trick Play on Real Time Live Program/ Recording Program/ Playback of Prerecorded Program.
By Auto-update. EPG shows Program information of All Satellite (You can see other satellite's EPG without channel change while watching one satellite's channel
Enhanced Playback by freely skip Ads./ Editing Prerecorded Program
USB Connection to PC

[Splash]

http://www.videodirectstore.com/toshiba/dvd-recorders/rd-xs32-lg.jpg

Much time has past since I queried this community about HDD video recorders. and, after all these earth years (more than 3), I finally bought something like what I originally described -- actually better.

In this case, I bought a Toshiba RDXS32, with an internal hard drive and a DVD-RAM / DVD-R / DVD-R/W recorder. The Toshiba 10-bit DAC renders a beautiful image without the visual compression artifacts that I see with many other brands DVD players. Only cost me a little over US$350 total.


http://store.yahoo.com/refurbelectronics/rdxs32-rb.html

[time]

Sweet. 8)

[Jake the Dog]

We get a lot of use out of our Topfield 5000PVRt. It's twin tuners allow dual records and simultaneous playback from it's 120GB HDD (also upgradable). Has an excellent GUI, plenty of 3rd party & free apps, auto & man record setup, EPG & USB.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/chillicom/sf_forum_posts/pvr5000t.jpg

Any recordings we want keep are either d/loaded to PC then burnt or recorded to DVD on our Sony RDR-GX300 DVD recorder via an RGB connection.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/chillicom/sf_forum_posts/gx300.jpg

Suffice it to say, we've never missed recording and keeping anything we've wanted to see since I bought these components!

[Pradeep]

On a happy note to US readers, the broadcast flag is temporarily dead in the water.

FCC's Broadcast Flag Overturned

Federal court strikes down regs that would limit viewers' ability to record and copy over-the-air hi-def TV programs.

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,120748,00.asp