World Cup 2002

[Bartender]

World Cup 2002 starts Friday 31 May, with group A beginning the games. The first teams from group A to play will be France and Senegal.

Perhaps some of you don't care for the World Cup, but Buck and I do, so I thought a thread on this subject was appropriate. More updates will come as the games begin (or other news comes to light).

[Buck]

Thanks for the information Bartender, I expect you'll have some of the games televised in the bar.

[Tannin]

Huh? I thought it was in South Africa?

[Buck]

Huh? I thought it was in South Africa?

Nope, the 2002 World Cup is being held in Korea and Japan.

I'm really looking forward to the 2006 World Cup which will be held in Germany. They're gonna remodel the Olympic Stadium in Berlin, and it will seat 76,000 people. I hope that Germany will get their act together by then and will be able to play some decent football again. Bayern being beat by England 5-1 is awful!

[Tea]

Huh? Football? Everyone knows the World Cup is the cricket championship.

[Buck]

Huh? Football? Everyone knows the World Cup is the cricket championship.

Cricket is for nancies!

[Mercutio]

The only real sport is women's beach volleyball.
Or gymnastics if they'd actually let actual adult women compete instead of little girls. 8)

Failing that, the only real sport is actual, gladiatoral combat.
Everything else is just some pansy substitute.

Baseball would be a lot more interesting if they let everyone have a bat to use in the manner the players see fit. Baseball needs more help than anything else. Three and four hour matches be damned. Maybe a machine-gun nest at second base or something.

Golf, with all that wasted, wide-open space, seems like it could be much improved with a starving tiger or two, some exploding balls, or perhaps land mines.

Aussie Football, from what I've seen, is on the right track. I'd lose the ball and proceed directly to the ass-kicking portion of the match.

Hockey, too, is a good idea ruined by protective gear and the presence of a puck.

Soccer, well, I'd say watch the hooligans. That or teach everone Savate or something.

Auto-racing? Well, it's hard to call that a sport. Two ideas: Have half the cars start the racing facing the other direction, or, well, did anyone ever play the old pen and paper game "Car Wars"?

Tennis, Badminton and Raquetball can all be made better through the use of true hazards along the out-of-bounds areas. Think of how much more interesting a Venus/Serena Williams match-up would be with the introduction of a yawning chasm.

Weightlifting: Instead of having the lift pick up the weight off the ground, drop it from some set height. The guy who catches it and remains standing longest wins.

I can improve any sport. Just name it.

[GIANT]

. .
What about ballroom dancing? Isn't that an Olympic sport?

I'm not being sarcastic, but wasn't ballroom dancing or maybe some other form of dancing allowed to compete in the Olympics?



. .

[timwhit]

Ballroom dancing will be in the 2004 summer games. I just don't understand why golf isn't included in the Olympics yet, it is a worldwide sport/hobby, many people play it...not that I do, but whatever.

And yes Mercutio we all know how you hate all sports. Haven't you ever participated in any sport that you enjoyed? How about paintball? Wrestling? Boxing? Ultimate fighting?

[GIANT]

. .
Ballroom dancing will be in the 2004 summer games...

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
. .

[flagreen]

I really enjoyed reading Mercutio's constructive suggestions for improving sports. They are very imaginative and very easy to visualize.

BTW - I think they should consider combining the Ballroom Dancing event with Archery in the next Olympics. A few sharks in the pool while they perform Synchronized Swimming wouldn't hurt ratings either.

[Mercutio]

And yes Mercutio we all know how you hate all sports. Haven't you ever participated in any sport that you enjoyed? How about paintball? Wrestling? Boxing? Ultimate fighting?

No. I haven't.

I really do believe that the only reason people watch sports, on the deepest level, is to watch for injury or injury-substitute activity. Therefore the right thing to do is to return sport to its most pure state, two guys with pointed sticks beating the crap out of each other.

People get what they want, and "athletes" have something to justify their economic status.

[Pradeep]

Any sport that requires subjective judging to decide the result is a bit dodgy to begin with IMHO. Look at the farce with the figure skating in Salt Lake.

Certainly beating someone to death with a blunt piece of wood gives a pretty objective result :D

[Handruin]

Certainly beating someone to death with a blunt piece of wood gives a pretty objective result :D

That would eliminate any complaining from the losing team. :rofl:

[Mercutio]

Ballroom dancing: Instead of a nice wood or marble floor, how about either loose gravel or suspended netting? "Travis and Wang are going for the pirouette and... Oh no! Oh the humanity!"

[Pradeep]

Huh? I thought it was in South Africa?

Senegal has a cricket team? :D

[Mercutio]

Any sport related to swimming: Just add pirrahna.

[Buck]

Any sport related to swimming: Just add pirrahna.

Too busy and quick. A few lurking crocodiles or submerged behemoths would let the entertainment last longer.

[Sol]

I've always thought that sport could be used positivly to solve our socio-economic problems.
ie. No holes bared fighting for the dole.
Turn an econimic burden into an entertainment extravaganza.
If your realy after pointless violence in sport, however, and lets face it who isn't. You can't do much better than international rules. For those of you not familiar with the game it is a sport played by Ireland and Australia and is a cross between soccer and Ausie rules. Round ball but you can pick it up. Of course neither country play it except for the one competition per year with each other, so no one is really that good at it. After a short time both sides tend to get annoyed by the rules inherited from the game which they don't play. The common term for what ensues is "Biffo". As none of the spectators really understand the game either this is the admited sole reason that anyone watches the game.
Its great stuff, and the Ausies almost always win (The fight not the game, I mean who really cares)

[Mercutio]

I'd think there woud be more of a space limitation in adding a Hippo or something.

Track and field events:
Running = rename it "being chased". Runners get a five second head start from, say, a cement truck, which then follows them around the track at whatever speed is most appropriate. Races end when either all the competitors have been run over, expired from exhaustion, or someone manages to cross the finish line.

Jumping: Jumping for height can be made a far better sport with the addition of a strong monofilament, or perhaps razorwire. Jumping for distance needs only the addition of a height differential between the starting point and the landing point (i.e. don't jump far enough, have a nice, long fall).

Throwing events: Should all take place simultaneously, in loosely opposing directions.

[Tea]

Actually, it's a cross between Gailic Football and Aussie Rules, Sol.

But that's a really good point you raise. Why on earth isn't the World Cup played using the proper International Rules? I figure the Australian side would do pretty well. :)

[Mercutio]

Sol, while "no holes barred" is a really interesting expression, and the title of a series of movies I'll admit to having enjoyed, I think the phrase you wanted was "No HOLDS barred", a throwback from professional wresting.

[Tea]

Oh no, Sol had it right the first time. Ain't you never heard of Wayne Carey?

[Mercutio]

No. But I've heard of Wayne Newton and Drew Carey. Are they close?

[Mercutio]

So what was the nature of the dispute with his teammate on the North Melbourne Kanagroos?

And given the phrase under consiideration here, I think perhaps we should phrase things delicately.

[Sol]

Yeah sorry, in a rush to get to class so I didn't do any proof reading (Or checking of facts because I should know that its Gailic football).

Incidently Anthony "The Man" Mundeen (Mendean? Who knows, you get the idea) is another good example of no holes bared sport in Australia.

But yes I did mean no holds bared, or firearms, or pointy sticks or anything else which may make the game more interesting/bloody.

[timwhit]

Mercutio-

If you enjoy death sports then what is wrong with ultimate fighting? Have you ever watched one of those matches before. People get kicked in the head when they are down, punched in the ba...well you get the idea.

I've heard about the Japanese equivalent to ultimate fighting, except it's much more violent. They fight in a room with spikes on the walls and all kinds of other traps.

[Prof.Wizard]

Yeah! The football season begins again... :D :D

I don't really care who will win the final, as long as it's not France... :x
I hate (most) French dudes...

[Corvair]

. .
...No holes bared fighting...

No, your thinking of nude tennis.




. .

[Mercutio]

Mercutio-

If you enjoy death sports then what is wrong with ultimate fighting? Have you ever watched one of those matches before. People get kicked in the head when they are down, punched in the ba...well you get the idea.


I don't enjoy any sports. My suggestions are based only on observations of sports fanatics.

[James]

Sol, while "no holes barred" is a really interesting expression, and the title of a series of movies I'll admit to having enjoyed, I think the phrase you wanted was "No HOLDS barred", a throwback from professional wresting.
Actually what he said was "no holes bared" which if it's some sort of male sport I'm pretty much in favour of.

[Cliptin]

Tennis, Badminton and Raquetball can all be made better through the use of true hazards along the out-of-bounds areas. Think of how much more interesting a Venus/Serena Williams match-up would be with the introduction of a yawning chasm.

HA, I have visions of the "discus event" in the movie TRON.

[Mercutio]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking when I typed that.

[CougTek]

If you enjoy death sports then what is wrong with ultimate fighting? Have you ever watched one of those matches before. People get kicked in the head when they are down, punched in the ba...well you get the idea.
Actually, there's a bunch of things we cannot do. We can't project our adversary head first on the ground, no headbutt, no choking, no bitting, etc.

Therefore the right thing to do is to return sport to its most pure state, two guys with pointed sticks beating the crap out of each other.
I'm all for it. Who wants to play we me? HellDiver? ;-)

[flagreen]

Sol, while "no holes barred" is a really interesting expression, and the title of a series of movies I'll admit to having enjoyed, I think the phrase you wanted was "No HOLDS barred", a throwback from professional wresting.
Actually what he said was "no holes bared" which if it's some sort of male sport I'm pretty much in favour of.
Ok! As chief moderator and bottle washer around here, I shall put to use my vast powers and on behalf of Sol offer the following correction -

I am Changing "no holes barred" to "no wholes barred". Happy now guys?

:eekers:

There now, let's have no more of this abuse to our Aussie friend.

[Mercutio]

Now we see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

Dancing banana-man (are you trying to tell us something, Bill? - and yes I finally loaded IE to see what the heck you were talking about last night) just couldn't wait to use all those vast moderator powers and now the only person with an "edit" button here thinks he's in charge.

:)

[Tannin]

Actually, for some reason that I have never taken the trouble to track down, I seem to have your rightful edit button, Mercutio. I've been meaning to write to Doug about that but keep forgetting. Given the vast amount of moderation required at present, i.e., none whatever, it didn't seem urgent.

[Mercutio]

As you'll note, I haven't exactly been complaining that my name isn't showing up in proper green type.

[Tannin]

Hello Doug? Mercutio is supposed to be green.

Wasn't there a song about that once? "It's not easy being green?"

[Handruin]

Hello Doug? Mercutio is supposed to be green.

Wasn't there a song about that once? "It's not easy being green?"

OK, now I'm confused...I thought Flagreen was the moderator for the next half of the year or something. ;) Is it both right now? I'm not playing favorites, I'm just misinformed, sorry about that.

[Tannin]

My fault, Doug. I should have written to you or posted in the admin forum.

Flagreen was elected to his badge and gun as of 1st January, Mercutio as of 1st April. Given the date of his appointment - April Fools Day - it seems entirely appropriate that his actual powers have not arrived. :)

In June I will call for nominations to fill the third mod position.

(And just to clarify to the non-admin members, my name appears as one of the moderators but that is just a courtesy Doug has extended to me so that I can keep the site FAQ up to date. I am not a moderator, and have no right to edit or delete your posts. Only Mercutio and Flagreen can do that.)

And hells bells! I was supposed to be creating a proper FAQ to take the place of the generic phpBB one! Yike! I better get on with it.

But first, an evening with Hayden (Symphony #81, I think it is) and one of my beloved Schumann symphonies: the 4th this time. I hope Markus Stentz is conducting again, as opposed to one of the guest conductors, because he really understands Schumann's symphonies as very few people do.

Nearly everyone seems to think:

"Oh, Schumann. Hmm, great man for string quartets but, well, he wasn't very good at symphonies, was he. Look at all that jagged timing and how hard it is to play the violin part. I'll just try to smooth it out a bit and make it more presentable so that it doesn't sound too amateurish, and then we can go on with the proper stuff .. what is it tonight? Ah yes, a Mendholson overture and the Triple Concerto. Now there are a couple of composers who really knew how an orchestra works."

Balls!

Do you really think the man who wrote with such astonishing melodic passion didn't understand the violin, didn't know what was difficult, know what notes fell easily to hand? I think the well-known awkwardness of his symphonies from the point of view of a string player was 100% intentional.

No. The right way to play the Schumann symphonies is not to gloss over the jaggednesses and awkwardness of them, it is to glory in them. That is what the Schumann symphonies are all about: awkwardness, anger, passion, confusion - and let us remember, no conductor could possibly extinguish the magnificently flowing melodies of a Robert Schumann. The conductor's task is not to concentrate on the melody so as to veil the drama. No: he must concentrate on the drama, secure in the knowledge that Schumann's melodies are irrepressable, and will only be uplifted and brought into carthatic synthesis with the work as a whole by a bold, broad brushed rendition.

I really hope it's Markus Stentz.

[Mercutio]

I tend toward the other extreme of the day, Wagner. Tchaikovsky once said that Wagner "has great moment but bad quarters of an hour". Still, those moments... I bought a complete "Ring" cycle on DVD last weekend (Deutsche Grammaphon, of course). I'm still working through it. But, oh, what moments!

Schumann is woefully under-represented in my personal collection. Mahler, aplenty, and Wagner and Mendelssohn. Dvorak and Lizst and Elgar. Romantics, all, but Schumann, delicate music to be sure, has never caught my ear, in much the same way that Tchaikovsky has never caught yours, Tannin.

I've sung his songs, of course (a proper thing for a young baritone to sing). Still, I can't say even at that, that I've partcularly found them pleasing.

Vaughn Williams... now there is one whose songs I love. Not just the transcriptions of English folk music (though that's wonderful stuff, too), either. Stephen Foster - the dark spirituals, another great one; or Copland's Old American songs. Those are all wonderful. Samuel Barber best of all. Someone who can be said to be a great writer of songs. He chose exquisite texts. Of course all of the above had the good sense to write their songs in English. I wonder if that's part of the problem.

Schumann's work in that department? Lyrical, but not particularly interesting to me.

I suppose that's a trend for me. I can't stand much prior to romantisism. Mozart and Hayden I despise. Bach less so - his keyboard works are often the equivalent of a marathon in musicianship, but in my opinion the joy there is technical rather than artistic brilliance. I play Bach and yearn for the liberties in art that came in with the Romantics. I sing Mozart and I want to strangle him myself for ever creating the character "Papageno".

Personally, I think Tannin should sit down with a good recording of Tchaikovsky's #6th. The height of Tchaikovsky's musical power; neither the hackney'd 1812 nor the overplayed Nutcracker.

[Tannin]

It wasn't Markus Stentz.

Right now I feel like someone who just won the silver medal at the world cup.

(Look! Look! Tannin is on-topic!)

(Not for long though.)

Yes, the silver medal. I can't work out if I feel delighted to have just seen a wonderful piece of music well-played, or depressed that I just drove three hours to see Schumann #4 done the wrong way.

Sigh.

It was still good though. More than good. Probably the best music I have seen all year. The Hayden was #43 - the "Farewell Symphony", which was delightful. Well, the first movement is disposable, the second fair to good, the third better yet, and the last one - the one where all the musicians walk off the stage one by one until there are just two violinists left - simply beautifuul.

There is a story to this one guys, which Mercutio will know, of course - at least to the extent that he pays any attention to Hayden, whom he does not like but I love. Two hundred and fifty odd years after the event, who knows if it is true, but I'll tell it anyway.

Hayden's employer, the prince, used to take himself off to a summer castle every year, which was rather small and although there was room for his 20-odd musicians, there was no room for their wives and families. This particular year, he stayed much longer than usual, and to provide a gentle hint, Hayden, his full-time composer and chief of the orchestra, wrote the Farewell Symphony, and instructed his musicians to pack up their instruments one by one, blow out their candles, and leave.

Obviously, the prince had a sense of humor, because the very next day he set off home again, where the wives of the musicians were, no doubt, pleased to see them all.

Then a short (~17 minute) "modern" thing, written by a brilliant young German in 1913, who didn't write much else after that because he was killed in the trenches in 1915. I forgot his name already, but Mercutio might know it. To describe it with a very broad brush ... well, a little similar to the things that Stravinsky was writing around about the same time. I enjoyed it. So, to my great surprise, did my father, who usually can't stand anything later than Brahms.

Finally, the Schumann. If you've not heard the Schumann symphonies, Mercutio, they are quite unlike the things for which he is more famous.


Oh, and on Wagner, I tend to agree with Tchaikovsky. But, as you say, those moments of his can be simply sublime. I only have a little Wagner, mostly earlier works, but I play them from time to time. My mum is a big Wagner fan. (Also Mahler and Rickard Strauss.) She went to Adelaide (~500 miles) last year to attend the Ring Cycle. Myself, I'd give serious though to driving to Adelaide to avoid it. Small doses of Wagner only, for me.

OK. Confession time. I would like to see the 1812 one day, but only if they do it with real cannons. Just because ... well .... it's one of those things that you have to do at least once, just as a 70s rock n roll fan can't really say he's lived if he's never seen Richie Blackmore thrash out those opening chords to Smoke on the Water.

I'll hunt down the Tchaikovsky 6th, Mercutio. Quite often I listen to him and feel that it is lightweight, like so much off Mendelssohn but without the euphony. But every now and then he seems to hop out of the stereo and hit me between the eyes with something of real power and brilliance. (Mum is sure to have it. She has everything. Almost.)

As for Bach, yes, I feel much the same way about Bach.

But the Schumann. Sometimes it's said that the entire 19th Century was spent looking for something to do after Beethoven.

Mendelssohn, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Schubert, Wagner, Strauss - everyone was writing in the Great Man's shadow, and looking for the way forward, because there was no longer any point in trying to approach perfection in the old forms: Beethoven had already achieved it. (Which he pretty much had.)

But (in my very ill-informed and against-the-wind opinion) they all missed the boat. Schumann had found the way forward and no-one noticed. It was not to be until the time of Stravinsky and Shostakovich that this direct and, in retrospect obvious, way forward was rediscovered.

[Mercutio]

Richter? Reger? I can't think of any other German composers who died in that era. Don't you keep program notes?

And yes, that story is true. Hayden's life, since he worked in the royal courts of Europe his whole life, is well-documented.

Now you're going to drive me nuts until I figure out who you were talking about.

1812? Every big city seems to do it when there are fireworks. Here in the US, we play 1812 during 4th of July celebrations (yup, we play a song written to describe the Russian defeat of the Napolean's troops, as part of the soundtrack to our own independance festivities). I know in Europe it's done during New Years celebrations, too. You have to be careful, though, the Cannons are written as fffff in the score (pretty much the only way to make something that loud is to fire a cannon). Some less than spectacular performance will try to get away with just banging on a bass drum, which isn't even close to loud enough (fff at best). 1812 should be done outside, and there should be real church bells, too. If you don't get cannons and church bells, you've been ripped off. :)

So that, I suppose, is what you need to look for.

Richard Strauss I love. Tyl Eulenspiegel's Merry Pranks, Death and Transfiguration... tone poetry. Wonderful stuff. Haven't listened to Strauss in awhile. That'll have to go in one of the changers (if I can convince Amy to let me turn a stereo on. Damn medical students always studying grumble grumble).

Or Dvorak. Everyone knows his 9th Symphony (every classical fan in the US, anyway; "From the New World" is the most performed piece of live classical musc in the US), but his tone poems are also wonderful.

Of course you're skipping over some very obvious and wonderful expressions in classical music if you're just talking about the pure romantics. The nationalists (Dvorak, Kodaly, most of post-Tchaikovsky 19th-century Russian, Chopin, Vaughn-Williams, Holst, Sibelius, Block...) and my beloved impressionists (Ravel, Debussey, Satie) certainly did find their own paths forward, even improving on Beethoven's romance.

Beethoven... Much as I love the 5th, and the 9th symphonies, I think his greatest work is the lament that is his 7th. Darkness in music is something I find very attractive. The 7th has it in spades.

Another good one for Tchaikovsky is his Violin Concerto. Particularly the 2nd movement. I enjoy that a great deal. I actually tend to see Tchaikovsky as a more 'serious' composer - harder to see given the forms he worked with, while Schumann and Schubert and to a lesser extent Mendelssohn take up as 'lighter' composers (although in the case of Mendelssohn, great lightweights. Midsummer Night Dream and the Scottish symphony are both delightful). Wagner and Mahler would represent the heaviest end of the scale. Ponderous

I'll pick up Schumann's catalog next time I'm out buying music. Ten or 15 CDs is probably a decent representative sample, I take it?

[Tannin]

Doubtless there is much else that is wonderful about Schumann, but for me, just the four symphonies would do.

I usually keep the program, or if I don't have one, make better mental notes, Mercutio. But having made sure to get one, it seems to have wound up in Kristi's pocket. (Yes, she has a taste for fine music too, both classical and rock and roll from the Sixties and Seventies. Like me, she has no time for this current decade.)

But I looked up the name of that young German composer on the MSO site (mso.com.au): Rudi Stephan. Not that it means anything to me.

The 1812 comes up regularly here, just as you would expect. Last time was a year or two ago, doubtless there will be another soon. But only about half of them have the cannons. I missed the last one for some reason or another, must make a point of going to the next. Don't know about the church bells though. Doubltess they do it that way in Adelaide, which seems to have more fine old churches per square mile than any city outside Europe.

"yup, we play a song written to describe the Russian defeat of the Napolean's troops, as part of the soundtrack to our own independance festivities"

I love it: :)

I must confess to a bad association with Richard Strauss, something to do with my age. I just can't listen to Strauss and hear the music: my mind's eye is constantly deluged with visual distractions: furry cartoon animals, scenes of comic chase and melodrama from 40's and 50's movies, stuff like that. You see, when I grew up, I don't think you were allowed to make a movie unless you used Strauss for the soundtrack, or at least paid a studio hack to write a soundtrack in the style of Strauss. I am utterly conditioned to hear Strauss and think "Oh oh! Bad movie coming up!" Perhaps it will wear off in another 30 years or so, but probably not. Things learned that early in childhood tend to stay with you.

Dvorak I love. (As, I suppose, almost everyone does.) Did I bore Storage Review readers with the delightful tale of how he came to wind up in the USA and write the "New World" Symphony already? I think I did, but no matter, it always makes me smile when I think of it - and this one is undoubtedly true. I'm shaky on the details, but the gist is correct.

Dvorak was respected but poor. He lived quietly in Prague, teaching music and composing. His fame was well-established but no longer really current: he was not the darling of European music fashion anymore, and the big commissions were not rolling in.

One day, a group of American music lovers wrote to him, asking him to come to New York and conduct, compose, teach. But Mrs Dvorak, who handled all his business dealings and spoke slightly more English than Anton, misunderstood. She though that they were offering so many dollars for the entire year, where actually the offer was of a quite respectable monthly salary. Sadly, for they would have loved to have gone to the USA, she wrote back saying "Thankyou, but the sum offered is nowhere near enough, considering who my husband is." She then named the smallest amount that she thought might be just enough to let them live in America for a year if they watched their pennies carefully.

And the New York people, showing that wonderful expansiveness that is uniquely American, simply wrote back saying "That is fine, Mrs Dvorak: we are happy to offer the amount you ask per month. Can you catch the next boat?"

And so the Dvoraks went to America, were a great success there, got paid about ten times as much as they had expected, and the New World Symphony came into being.

[James]

The 1812 comes up regularly here, just as you would expect. Last time was a year or two ago, doubtless there will be another soon. But only about half of them have the cannons.
Actually, we have just had or are just about to have a performance of the 1812 overture here in Sydney with cannons (and lasers and fireworks and...). I haven't paid it much mind because I've been struck down by the 'flu for the first time in years. But if you'd like me to find out for you Tony, let me know.

The RSC is here at the moment too - that I will make a point of seeing.

[Tannin]

Damn it James, don't tempt me! Sydney is wonderful at this time of year.

[James]

The RSC is coming to Melbourne too :

http://premier.ticketek.com.au/Ticketek/event/event01.asp?NatTag=HOLLOWCR02&SynopsisCode=HOLLOWCR02&PrevStep=Search

There's a terrific lineup of talent - Diana Rigg, Derek Jacobi, Ian Richardson, Donald Sinden... but unfortunately it's a special presentation of various things rather than being a play.

I've been to Stratford to see the RSC a number of times, but my fondest memory is seeing Jeremy Irons in A Winter's Tale about 10 years ago. Everything was just spectacular, from the set to the costumes - and of course, the words...!


(I'm afraid I'm a bit more of a lover of words than music.)

[Mercutio]

And to think this was to a thread about some sport or other!

Tannin, we appear to have hijacked it.

Don't feel too badly about Strauss. The only thing most people know of his is of course the vastly overdone "Also Spake Zarathustra". I know about 2001 and all, but dear lord is that thing overused.

[Tannin]

And to think this was to a thread about some sport or other!

Yes. It's improved a great deal, hasn't it. :)

[Tannin]

I was going to mention Also Spake Zarathustra in my last post, but torn between the twin evils of spelling it wrong or standing up to find a suitable book to look it up in, I just skipped the topic.

Indeed, it is terribly over used, at least the opening fanfare is, but I have seen it live two or three times now and - thanks to my mother who has an ear for these things - come to like the ending even more than the beginning. In fact, sometimes I put on my heretic's hat and wonder if it wouldn't have been better to split the opening fanfare off completely as a seperate work. Then, the remaining part of Also Spake Zarathustra - i.e., most of it - would have a chance to stand on its own two feet.

(Sound of Tannin being dragged off for a session with the hot irons and the chains.)

Kodaly I don't think I know at all, except as a name. I'd be hard-pressed to think of a single well-known Russian composer that I don't love, with the possible exceptions of Rachmaninof and perhaps Tchaikovsky - those two I mostly only like in small doses, though both of them have from time to time reached out and touched me with magnificence in a way that few can do. One of my most-played recordings ever is Borodin's well-known From the Steppes of Central Asia: such a simple little thing, and yet always delightful.

[Sol]

All thats needed to make this thread complete is some way of making clasical music, really really violent...

Any sugestions?

[Tannin]

Try Wagner.

[Tea]

You should have mentioned Strauss in that context too, Tannin.

What Tannin meant to say, Sol, is that certain of Wagner's more fanatic admirers also happened to have some rather ... er extreme opinions about politics. Notably a young Austrian war veteran by the name of Schicklgruber. Half the fun of attending young Herr Schicklgruber's rallies was listening to Wagner. And, of course, beating up a few jews and communists and homosexuals and any other riff-raf you happened to meet on the way home. This was all good sport. Of course, he wasn't known as Mr Schicklgruber by then, nor even by his first name, which was Adolf.

Mind you, there are a lot of people who find that Wagner makes them feel rather violent. Generally speaking, 17 hours of Wagner will either make you violently in favour of staying to hear the other 17 hours (yes, some of his works were quite long) or else make you violently ill, one or the other. Tannin and I fall into an uneasy middle ground, and tend to feel both desires at the same time.

[Mercutio]

Step one: Find a copy of Holst's The Planets. I prefer the Yoel Levi/ Altanta SO recording on Telarc, but in part that's because it's a DTS CD. Anyway, turn the dial on your stereo to its highest setting.
Press play.

What you'll hear first is martial music, written for a madman. 7/8s time, swooping crescendos, pounding bass. It's stunning to hear live but even on a CD it's a remarkable piece.

Mars, Bringer of War the first piece is called. As you tour the other planets (only 8, Holst died before Uranus was discovered), you'll be treated to literally all of human emotion. But violence is foremost in the piece, and the most familiar. I like Jupiter and Saturn best, myself.

Other good bets: Mahler's Symphony #1 (the Titan). The opening to the final movement is a swirling mass of musical chaos.

Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. The program notes for the ballet involve pagan sacrifice, and the music was so profoundly different than what had come before that its first audience rioted in the streets of Paris. Violent? You tell me.

Stravinsky's Firebird. I hadn't really associated it with violence until I saw the end of "Fantasia II".

Berlioz's Symphony Fantastique. Particularly the fourth of five movements, describing an imagined walk to the gallows for the composer. Symphony Fantastique has a great story, too. Berlioz composed it for a beautiful singer on whom he had a crush. At its performance, he passed out a program describing the action the music was attempting to convey - namely, Berlioz pledging love to his singer, being spurned, executed and sent to hell. He eventually married the woman.

Wagner - well there's the Ride of the Valkyries, of course. But I think the more violent bit is the finale of Tristan und Isolde. Liebestod following into the aria "Mild und Leise". Perhaps more sadly dramatic than violent. Both, really.

Barber's "Medea's Dance of Vengence". Barber was the last unabashedly romantic composer. Everyone knows him from his "Adagio for Strings", but in this piece, we're talking about the slithering, cold sort of violence. Utterly different from anything else he wrote. By the way Tannin, if you don't have Barber in your collection, that would be a top pick from me, particularly his Essays for Orchestra, Violin Concerto and Piano Concerto. And the songs, of course.

Shostikovich - a Soviet-era composer whose music, by the tastes of the day, ran to martial. One could make the case that most of his symphonies run to violent, although I I'd put forth that his 5th, 9th and 13th are probably more than others.

Xenakis - it's virtually impossible to find recordings of the Greek Composer and Engineer Xenakis' work. His music, best as I understand, was composed mathematically using some system I don't recall, but the impact is utterly, utterly alien. Not violent. Frightening. Creepy. Disturbing. We're talking about noises that scare my cats.

Saint-Saen's Danse Macabre - again, more creepy than violent, but it's good to bring it up. Danse Macabre is an insane waltz. Listen to some Johann Strauss and then put on the Saint Saen's piece. You'll see what I mean. I'm particularly fond of the organ arrangement.

And of course the classic: Mussorgsky's Night on Bald Mountain. The "Fantasia" telling of the myth is correct - on a haunted mountain a man witnesses a great evil frolicking in the night. Violent, vaguely creepy, and compelling.

So that's enough for violence.

Kodaly is not a well-represented composer in CD recordings. I have a dozen or so, but I had to scour for them. He was a Hungarian, a nationalist composer fascinated by the Roma influenced folk music of his homeland. Musically probably similar to Bartok. He produced some marvelous choral music and really wonderful chamber music, too.

[Mercutio]

For Rachmaninov, try his Preludes. G# minor is overplayed - a simple, dramatic work that never fails to get attention, but the others are delightful.

If you'd really like to hear an awful version of Also Spake Zarathustra, I have a recording that was arranged and recorded for electric guitar and bass. It's really, really bad.

Or the worst thing I've ever heard: a live recording of Sammy Davis Jr. trudging his way through "Nessun Dorma".

OK, I'll stop now. Ugh.

[Buck]

No worries on the thread theme, the Bartender and I will retake this thread when the World Cup starts.

[DrunkenBastard]

*buuuuuuuuuuuuurp* Lets take it back now. Your finest run good sir.

[Tea]

Excuse me Bartender, what is my friend DB lying down like that for? And why did he ask for a glass of run? I thought he liked rum. Do you think he would wake up if I put some of this ice down his trousers?

[James]

Knowing how he feels about you Tea, some ice down his trousers might be a very good idea.

[Buck]

*buuuuuuuuuuuuurp* Lets take it back now. Your finest run good sir.

Patience my cantankerous friend.

[Buck]

Since Wagner was mentioned in this thread, here are a few of the words he is quoted as saying:

"I am the most German of beings. I am the German Spirit. Consider the incomparable magic of my works."

"I am not made like other people. I must have beauty and light. The world owes me what I need."

No wonder he lived with such great debt his whole life. Although, I suppose that many artists have a similar arrogance. Otherwise, their work would not be able to transcend the typical and ordinary.

How appropriate, and hilariously accurate, that in the movie: The Blues Brothers, the Illinois Nazis were always listening to Wagner. Not only was he conceitedly German like they pretended, but he was also madly anti-Semtic. When Parsifal premiered in 1882, the conductor was a Jew named Herman Levi. Wagner pleaded that Levi undergo baptism.

The Festival March from Tannhaeuser is a pleasant melody to listen to.

BR

[Mercutio]

Went out this afternoon and purchased a complete set of Schumann symphonies, the von Dohnanyi recording on London. I've listened to the first symphony (appropriately for most of us, the "Spring" symphony) so far and I find it very enjoyable. A bit up-tempo for my mood today but as captivating a work as some of the Mendelssohn or Brahms symphonies I know well from that era.

The recording quality is excellent, too.

Picked up a CD of Schumann Violin Concertoes as well, and a couple of Naxos CDs (Samuel Barber's Cello Concerto and Medea suite, and some piano works from a jazz-inspired composer I had not heard of, Zez Confrey). Buying classical music one isn't familiar with is a bit like treasure hunting. Most other types of music have some kind of living community in dictating tastes. Classical music, whether because of the lack of public interest or the conservative tastes of those who keep it on life support (classical radio stations, serious schools of music and and the ensembles that rely on ticket sales and donations to remain afloat), doesn't travel outside a narrow range of established standards. Of course, back in his day, Beethoven said the same thing.

At any case, with so much music and so few outlets, finding the great stuff is kind of hard, and the search becomes as much part of the fun as the joy of listening.

[Bartender]

<Back on topic>
Germany 8, Saudi Arabia 0 – a sad state for Saudi Arabia, but certainly not a game worth bragging over for Germany. We’ll see how Germany can stand real opposition from Ireland and Cameroon. Nevertheless, the goals were great to see.

[CougTek]

but certainly not a game worth bragging over for Germany.
Based on the few experiences I had with Germans, anything's worth bragging for them. I don't know what's the origin of the word "humble", but one thing's sure, it's not german.

[Bartender]

but certainly not a game worth bragging over for Germany.
Based on the few experiences I had with Germans, anything's worth bragging for them. I don't know what's the origin of the word "humble", but one thing's sure, it's not german.
:D
I personally wouldn't stereo-type Germans that way....but, don't get me started about the French! :mrgrn:

[Prof.Wizard]

Italy kicked ass too... :wink:

I think Argentina or Italy will win the cup this time... of course, too early to speak.

[Bartender]

Perhaps not quite as off balance as the Germany/S.Arabia game - the Italians didn't have much in the way of opposition from Ecuador.

[Rocco Siffredi]

Sports... boring! Except cycling - preferably a downhill 20 mile stretch. Only lasts 20 minutes but the ride up is... er... no thanks. Screw that. All sports are boring.

Don't get me started on football - a bunch of overpaid kids kicking an inflated sheep/pig bladder across a field. Pfff, who cares. I went for a pee this morning. Perhaps I should make it a sport.

Based on the few experiences I had with Germans, anything's worth bragging for them. I don't know what's the origin of the word "humble", but one thing's sure, it's not german.

You know why they have no speed limits in Germany, right? So you can get the hell out of there as fast as possible :mrgrn:

[Prof.Wizard]

Perhaps not quite as off balance as the Germany/S.Arabia game
I heard a speaker on the radio today. You know what's wrong this Middle East football?

They don't have the imagination of South Americans.
They don't have the technics of Europeans.

How did you expect them to win?


PS. In two days plays the US team. Big laugh. :lol:
(I like the outsiders. Frankly, I want them to pass the next round)

[Bartender]

Mexico and Italy tie 1-1; France and Argentina (both favorites) don't make it out of the first round; what is goin' on?!?

[Clocker]

GO WINGS!!

Parade is on Monday!

C

[Clocker]

WHoops! World Cup <> Stanley Cup

Sorry....

Clocker

PS: GO WINGS!

[Prof.Wizard]

http://space.tin.it/io/kmihaili/USsys.jpg

Italians... they live football... they were decoding how the Americans will play this match!

[Bartender]

The game between Germany and USA should be interesting, but I don't see Germany winning that match.

[Jake the Dog]

with Germany being one the greatest football nations on this planet, i don't see the USA beating them. GGermany haven't played at their best yet. and although USA have done very well to get this far, a team the calibre of Germany will be too much for them.

Go go England!

[Bartender]

Unbelievable:

Germany 1
Korea 0

.... let's see if Brazil can beat Turkey.

[Prof.Wizard]

Deutschland über alles!

http://www.flags.net/elements/gif_flags/GERM002.GIF

[Dr. Willy]

Ja! Ich bin sehr zufrieden!

:king:

[OT: Polizei]

Zufrieden bin ich nicht, überrascht, ja. Hoffnungsvoll gewinnt Brasilien gegen die Türkei.

[Jake the Dog]

05/06/2002; jakey predicts a brazil - germany final with brazil winning 2-0...


how close was i? :wink:

[Prof.Wizard]

Rather close. :wink:

[Bartender]

My pessimisms came to fruition. Germany has not been winning their games as a result of sheer prowess; their wins were more accidental. Hence, a truly proficient team plays them, and they deservedly lose. Theoretically, that is the point of the playoffs, and then the final match: the best team should win.

I would have liked to see Germany win for personal reasons, but I must stand by the side of sportsmanship.

[Buck]

2006 World Cup (Football/Soccer Tannin) is only a year away.

Brazil won 1st place for the current FIFA tournament; Argentina took 2nd, and Germany 3rd. Germany has a long way to go before July 2006.

[Mercutio]

Why are we talking about sports in a thread about Classical music?

[Buck]

Why are we talking about sports in a thread about Classical music?

:?:

[Pradeep]

A friend of mine in Australia actually won a fully paid trip for two to Korea to see the 2002 World Cup, his wife bought a Hyundai and they had 10 winners selected from Aus.

[Mercutio]

Why are we talking about sports in a thread about Classical music?

:?:

Yes, if you'll scroll upwards, you'll find that this is not a thread about sport, but rather ways to improve sport, and also classical music. I think you need to start a new thread and leave this one nice and off-topic.

[Buck]

Ah yes, someone did pull the old buckaroo off-topic trick; a new thread will be forthcoming.