Hybrid Cars Overrated

[Clocker]

Comment: Civic Hybrid And Prius Are Overrated
Much-touted cars don't live up to their EPA ratings

Automotive News
By Richard Truett
May 10, 2004



Engineers have done a masterful job with the gasoline-electric Honda Civic Hybrid and the Toyota Prius. Those cars are technical marvels, probably the most advanced and complex production cars ever made.

Each company's public relations department has whipped up a media frenzy for what is, frankly, a complex and expensive way to squeeze a few more miles out of a gallon of gasoline.

Honda and Toyota PR types obviously know that the mainstream press and even some automotive reporters (who may be great business writers but who aren't technically savvy) wouldn't look much further than the EPA's mpg ratings for the Civic Hybrid and Prius.

Automotive News tested both cars extensively for about three weeks and learned what many disappointed Civic Hybrid and Prius owners are finding out: Neither car lives up to its promise or consistently achieves fuel economy near its EPA rating.

Not many vehicles match their EPA ratings exactly, but they usually aren't off by more than 10 percent. The fuel economy for the Civic Hybrid and Prius was all over the map.

The EPA needs a testing procedure specifically for gasoline-electric hybrids that provides a realistic measurement of the fuel economy. And Honda and Toyota must do a better job of telling customers that they most likely won't get anywhere near the EPA ratings.

Mpg isn't spectacular

One Automotive News driver commuted 200 miles a day on interstate highways. Several other drivers used the cars in stop-and-go city traffic.

So how did our test cars perform?

Both cars did OK in keeping up with traffic. You wouldn't call the acceleration sporty, but the cars proved capable.

The Prius is clearly the better car. The styling is terrific; the utility is excellent. As always, Toyota's quality is superb. The Prius is solid and tight and Lexus-like quiet. Because it can run on only the electric motor, it's more fun to drive.

The Civic Hybrid also has some nice touches, including the cool blue electronic instruments and a nicely designed interior. It is EPA-rated at 46 mpg city/ 51 highway. Our test car delivered about 37.6 mpg in city driving and about 44 mpg on the highway.

The Prius has an EPA rating of 60 mpg city/51 highway. One staff member drove the Prius 331 miles in combined city-highway driving and got just 39.8 mpg. Most other drivers recorded 44 mpg to 48 mpg in city driving and about 40 mpg on the highway.



Those are not breakthrough, real-world fuel economy milestones. Several other cars that are less complex technically - new and old - can equal or surpass those figures and achieve real-world fuel economy that is much closer to their EPA ratings. The 1988 Honda Civic CRX HF, for example, got close to its EPA ratings of 50 mpg city and 56 mpg highway.

I'd go with diesel

I have long said that if you just want to go far on a gallon of something, diesel makes the most sense. Many compact European diesel cars, such as the Ford Focus and Peugeot 307, get better fuel economy than the Civic Hybrid and Prius.

I'd rather get an honest 50 mpg with a diesel car and not have to worry about burning out battery packs or having a car with an engine and a motor.

Tailpipe emissions are another supposed reason why hybrids are good for us. Well, the Civic Hybrid and Prius are not too special in that regard either.

The regular production Ford Focus with the 2.3-liter engine, which is rated as a partial zero emissions vehicle, can match both hybrids in tailpipe emissions.

Hybrid trucks make sense

Here's the bottom line: The Civic Hybrid and Prius are overrated. I'm not saying that gasoline-electric technology has no place. It does.

Hybrid cars, as they are configured today, work best in Japan, where the diesel is all but banished and where heavy traffic and long periods of idling make the best use of gasoline-electric technology.

I agree with General Motors' reasoning: For vehicles sold in the United States, hybrid technology makes the most sense in the biggest, gas-guzzling SUVs and other trucks.

The only GM hybrids on the road are a few hundred gasoline-electric pickups for fleets. GM is producing hybrid powertrains for city buses, but they aren't as sexy as the Civic Hybrid and Prius, so they don't get much attention from the mainstream press.

Too bad GM CEO Rick Wagoner's dictum that GM will be a fast and lean company hasn't resulted in hybrid powertrains for Cadillac Escalades, GMC Yukons and Hummer H2s.

[ddrueding]

My mother's 2L Golf gets pretty close to a hybrid in terms of milage...I thought everyone knew they weren'y ready for the big-time yet.

[Clocker]

Not everyone is so clear on that issue...unfortunately.

[sechs]

This is just baloney. The EPA system isn't setup to compare different fuel systems -- the numbers hybrids, pure-gasoline, diesel, vegetable oil, and whathaveyou just don't match up.

Furthurmore, how efficient a hybrid works really depends upon how you drive it. Those without this understanding expect far more out of the technology than they should.

[Clocker]

The bottom line is people paid a premium thinking they were getting a vehicle that would get much better mileage than it actually does in real world usage. Hybrids are much more sensitive to driving style than conventional gas engine vehicles and represent more of a comprise with respect to driveability than all the hype about them would lead the consumer to believe.

[P5-133XL]

Why would one expect the technology to be ready for prime-time? It is just plain too new for perfection. The technology will improve with time becomeing become much better; more reliable; and more cost effective. Currently the manufacturers are simply trying to market themsleves in a particular light; offer an alternative for the enviornmentalists while letting them pay-off a small amount of the cost of R&D.

Just compare the Civic HX, Golf, or a good diesal to the Civic Hybrid/Toyota Primus and you can easily see that you aren't getting enough to justify the additional expense. There are still people that are willing to pay simply to make an enviornmental statement with their cars. Lets let them make their statement while paying-off a little of the Manufacturer's R&D budget and everyone will be happy.

[Clocker]

Why would one expect the technology to be ready for prime-time? It is just plain too new for perfection. The technology will improve with time becomeing become much better; more reliable; and more cost effective. Currently the manufacturers are simply trying to market themsleves in a particular light; offer an alternative for the enviornmentalists while letting them pay-off a small amount of the cost of R&D.

Just compare the Civic HX, Golf, or a good diesal to the Civic Hybrid/Toyota Primus and you can easily see that you aren't getting enough to justify the additional expense. There are still people that are willing to pay simply to make an enviornmental statement with their cars. Lets let them make their statement while paying-off a little of the Manufacturer's R&D budget and everyone will be happy.

While I agree with that line of thinking, I highly doubt that the suckers who actually paid a preium for one of the hybrid cars out right now were thinking that way.

[Fushigi]

Seems to me this is more an issue with the EPA rating system than the manufacturers themselves. The EPA doesn't do real-world driving to establish their ratings. Their highway speed, for instance, is something like 48 MPH. Doing that on any highway I've ever driven is the moral equivalent of placing your car in neutral and just coasting.

NHTSA is updating their crash tests; the EPA should be updating their rating system as well. Until they do, this will continue to be a problem.

I think the better way to market hybrids is to say they'll get 20-30% better mileage than their gas-only counterparts.

And not to make this political, but what industry benefits from vehicles not getting their advertised mileage? Could it be one of the two industries that benefit from abysmal CAFE requirements?

[Will Rickards WT]

And the local wb affiliate just ran a story last night about how great hybrids are. Toyota is apparently not able to keep up with demand for the prius.
Regarding the price premium, keep in mind that there are tax incentives for many hybrid owners (is this state or federal level?). According to the news report the tax incentives are about 20% of the purchase price. Also according to the report they are about 4K more than a comparable model. Say 30K, 4K is less than 20% which is 6K.

News Source (http://wb17.trb.com/news/wphl-news-hybrid,0,1963518.story?coll=wphl-news-2)

But the price of a car is not just the purchase price.
There is also cost of routine maintenance and then repairs.
I'm guessing that hybrids do really bad in this area.

[Fushigi]

The federal tax incentive is a $2000 credit, which is going down to $1500, then (I think) $1000 before being phased out altogether. A 28% bracket household, then could reduce taxes by no more than $560 by buying a hybrid. Not huge but not too bad of an incentive.

Some states may have their own incentives on top of that.

Operating the vehicles should be competitive. Cheaper on gas, of course. Toyota is giving the batteries an 8yr/80k warranty and a replacement set of batteries is currently $2K but is expected to drop by 50% over the next few years as they become more common.

Overall I'd expect maintenance costs to be pretty similar to a gas-only over the first 60-80K miles but more after that since there are more components (electric motors, for instance) in a hybrid system. Consider it similar to maintaining a 4WD/AWD car vs. 2WD.

Where I think hybrids will truly shine are in SUVs where it takes so much torque to get them moving. The other place I see it is a hybrid 4WD where a typical gas/diesel powered FWD/RWD vehicle has an electric system powering the other set of tires, thus providing low-speed AWD/4WD without a complicated drivetrain. Main boost is wet/snow traction and vastly improved city mileage. No significant change to highway mileage. It'd also allow for slightly smaller gas engines to be used.

[Buck]

Why don't we just stay at home or use bicycles? :D

[sechs]

At last check, Toyota was providing all maintenance for three years on the Prius -- everything but gas and wiper fluid basically.

Sure, you have to bring it back to an appropriately-equiped Toyota dealership for an oil change, but I don't see that as any different than if it didn't come with the free maintenance.

[CougTek]

While Toyota is pretty optimistic regarding the EPA rating of some of its small vehicles (I know, I bought a Corolla LE a few months ago), their cars (and Honda's) still beat small American cars for mileage vs gas consumption. Maybe the Focus has a better filtering system to block most harmful chemicals from going out of the exhaust pipe, but it still drinks significantly more oil than a Civic or Corolla and therefore, produces more carbon monoxide.

Even if 7.8L/100Km for the new Prius is far over what Toyota advertise, it's still better than almost every other intermediate size sedans. I definitely prefer to see a bunch of Prius on the roads than a bunch of Chrysler Sebring or Malibu MAXX with thirsty V6 engines (~11 or 12L/100Km each for every 100Km). Sure, there are some cars with diesel engines that can beat the hybrids, but the hybrids are a move in the right direction anyway.

I don't believe that discouraging others from buying hybrid cars, which are, if not the absolutely less polluting vehicles, at least near the bottom, is a very intelligent thing to do.

[time]

Very well put, Coug. I was probably agreeing with the thrust of the thread until you made your point.

[Pradeep]

They did a semi-review of alternate vehicles on Motorweek on PBS last Sunday, apparently the new Chevy hybrid pickup uses regenerative braking to charge a battery, then when the truck stops at say a red light the engine turns off and the electrical system is powered by the battery. When the drives pushes the accelerator the engine starts up and off she goes. Seemingly good for a 10-15% increase in mileage. I look forward to the review/release of the Toyota Highlander Hybrid.

I wonder what the new regulations regarding particulates in diesel fuel are going to do the price at the pump for that? It's meant to get down to 15 ppm in 2008, from 600 right now or something.

[Howell]

As the only car company producing diesels for the american market, VW had previously stated that until the US reduced sulfur content in diesel fuel further advances in fuel efficiency for diesel engines are not feasable. I believe there are diesels available in the EU that are not brought here because they require low sulfur fuel.

[Buck]

I wonder what the new regulations regarding particulates in diesel fuel are going to do the price at the pump for that? It's meant to get down to 15 ppm in 2008, from 600 right now or something.

BP introduced 500ppm for Australia in 2000 and was then working on 50ppm.

[Buck]

500ppm Diesel Fuel was required in Australia by January 1, 2003 (although this is already a standard in Europe) and the next standard of 50ppm is supposed to be enforced in 2005/2006. The problem with low-sulphur or ULSD (Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel) is the lack of lubrication in the fuel for the injection system. This is made worse by the sulphur reduction treatment that involves hyrdogen. Sulphur causes the O-rings in the fuel system to swell, a lack of sulphur causes the opposite. There is a company in Australia, BE Bioenergy (http://www.bebioenergy.com/impact.htm), that has a neat additive that uses virgin Canola oil. BE seems to be formulating this product with some help from a Canadian company, Neoteric Biofuels. Anyway, this is a nice solution to counteract the negative effects of ULSD.

[sechs]

Virgin canola oil?

There's a group here in the US that has a setup that allows you to use used fry-oil (as from fast-food restaurants) as a fuel.

[Clocker]

I don't believe that discouraging others from buying hybrid cars, which are, if not the absolutely less polluting vehicles, at least near the bottom, is a very intelligent thing to do.

I agree with you, somewhat. However, that is exactly what Toyota and Honda are doing with hybrid vehicles that don't perform close to what the mileage sticker says. Example: If I bought a motherboard from some manufacturer that promised new levels of performance because of their new technology but the board didn't perform close to expectations...I probably would not buy one again.

I think you're missing the point of my initial posting. Honda and Toyota need to do it right and come through on their promises or they may do more harm than good. Or, they should at least be up-front about it by telling the customers that the actual mileage can differ from the claimed mileage by a much larger amount than a conventional gas engine vehicle would.

To me, this isn't about whether the hybrids are good or not. The marketplace will determine that. What really matter to me is that people get what they pay for and customer expectations are fulfilled. I don't think this is happening with the current hybrid cars.

The hybrid trucks GM is producing are different, IMO. It really brings new functionality that a person can use besides just increased gas mileage. The GM truck can also perform double duty as a power generator for a worksite or even your house. How cool would that have been during the blackout? The power goes out, you just start up your truck and plug your house into the 110/220v outlets located in the back of your pickup truck bed...

[Pradeep]

Clocker, any idea on how much power can be drawn from the power outlets on the GM trucks? Motorweek had a guy running a circular saw, just wondering if it could handle say 5000W like a portable generator.

[Clocker]

I'm not sure of the limit but I will talk to a guy in our electrical lab to find out if he knows. I DO know they are industrial type outlets and are designed for supplying power at a typical construction worksite (which should be pretty high). I also have heard that they are good enough for a 'typical' house (I'm not sure what that means). I'll see what I can find out.

C

[Clocker]

14,000 Watts Continuous Power

More details here:

http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/edu_k-12/5-8/fc_energy/pht_poster.pdf

[Pradeep]

14,000 Watts Continuous Power


Very nice :) More power than a several thousand dollar standby generator.

[CityK]

I see Ford is going to be producing the "Escape Hybrid"

[sechs]

Yes. It rolls over and electrocutes you.

Expected to be popular in Texas.

[cquinn]

I think you're missing the point of my initial posting. Honda and Toyota need to do it right and come through on their promises or they may do more harm than good. Or, they should at least be up-front about it by telling the customers that the actual mileage can differ from the claimed mileage by a much larger amount than a conventional gas engine vehicle would.


I was listening to an interview about this on NPR the other day, and they
pointed out something interesting...

Honda, Toyota, and any other hybrid manufacturer can't be "up
front" about it, because EPA regulations prohibit advertising any milage
ratings other than those provided by the EPA tests.

This is because of a law that was passed back in the days when mileage
ratings were first published; some dealers were advertising better mileage for
their cars than what the testing showed. At the time, nobody ever thought that
dealers might want to claim lower mileage for their cars than what the
sticker shows.

And apparently they (toyota at least) are making some attempt to
let dealers (and drivers) know about the issue, even if they cannot
quote exact figures.

[url]http://www.priusonline.com/viewtopic.php?p=5568[/url

[Clocker]

Here's a guy who is telling his story with Hybrids. Seems that Honda is taking a very long time to get back with him....

http://hybridbuzz.blogspot.com/

C

[Howell]

Looks like they got back to him.


Lastly, I received a voice mail from Honda today in response to my most recent (4/15) correspondence. Fingers crossed.

I'm sure the negative publicity didn't hurt.

[flagreen]

I want a new Ford GT. Will GM come out with anything to compete?

[Stereodude]

I want a new Ford GT. Will GM come out with anything to compete?
There's supposed to be a version of the new C6 Corvette called the blue devil that should prove interesting. Supercharged 427in^3 engine and all...

http://www.autoweek.com/search/search_display.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=carnews&content_code=08555349&Search_Type=STD&Search_ID=1754452&record=16

[flagreen]

Wow! That should rock. I imagine it may compete in sales with the GT but I don't anything in a Corvette body will ever compete with the GT on a road course.

Why not an updated Chaparral for the street?

[Stereodude]

Wow! That should rock. I imagine it may compete in sales with the GT but I don't anything in a Corvette body will ever compete with the GT on a road course.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. If the Cadillac CTS-V and Corvette Z06 can rule the roost in the SCCA ( http://www.world-challenge.com/2004/gt-standings.html ) I wouldn't underestimate the capability of the Blue Devil.

[Clocker]

The other day, I lifted up the frame for the next generation Z06...by myself. :roll: It's very...very light.

[Buck]

The other day, I lifted up the frame for the next generation Z06...by myself. :roll: It's very...very light.

It's fun, isn't it. I did that at a recent Auto Show with the Audi A8 aluminum frame - freaky.

[Clocker]

Now THIS is an effective use of hybrid technology:


King County, Wash., will begin saving more than 750,000 gallons of fuel a year when it unveils the largest U.S. fleet of GM hybrid propulsion system buses today. GM executives will present the keys to the first of 235 GM hybrid buses to King County Metro Transit, which serves 2,134 square miles including Seattle, during a noon ceremony at the Seattle Seahawks Stadium. The new hybrids will begin going into service on June 5.

GM plans to roll out more than 270 of its hybrid propulsion system buses to 10 cities in 2004. These buses deliver 60 percent greater fuel economy than conventional transit buses, and can reduce certain emissions up to 90 percent. In fact, replacing 13,000 transit buses in America's nine largest cities with hybrid buses would save 40 million gallons of fuel a year.

In addition to being able to ride the GM hybrid buses, Washington residents will be able to order Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra hybrid pickup trucks in local dealerships beginning this fall.

[Buck]

Good find Clocker, I heard about that this morning on the news. That is a great way for using hybrid technology.

[sechs]

They'd get more out of fuel-cell powered buses. There's some city in Canada which has a small fleet of them.

All you get from them is steam....

[Buck]

They'd get more out of fuel-cell powered buses. There's some city in Canada which has a small fleet of them.

All you get from them is steam....

Indeed, those buses are from Daimler.

[mubs]

It's official. (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=711&e=8&u=/usatoday/driversupsetashybridsfallshortonfueleconomy) Too bloody bad.

[Buck]

Here is what Consumer Reports came up with for fuel economy:

Toyota Prius:
CU's overall mileage, mpg 44
CU's city/highway, mpg 35/50
CU's 150-mile trip, mpg 48
Cruising range, mi. 545

Honda Civic Hybrid:
CU's overall mileage, mpg 36
CU's city/highway, mpg 26/45
CU's 150-mile trip, mpg 44
Cruising range, mi. 550

Volkswagen Golf GLS TDI:
CU's overall mileage, mpg 41
CU's city/highway, mpg 29/54
CU's 150-mile trip, mpg 50
Cruising range, mi. 695

For comparison:

Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagon 4-cyl.:
CU's overall mileage, mpg 20
CU's city/highway, mpg 14/28
CU's 150-mile trip, mpg 24
Cruising range, mi. 385

Toyota Corolla Sedan LE:
CU's overall mileage, mpg 29
CU's city/highway, mpg 20/39
CU's 150-mile trip, mpg 35
Cruising range, mi. 430
_________________

By the way, wasn't Tony looking to buy a new car? Tea, did that every go through?

[Clocker]

Like I was saying....


"The last thing we want to do is discourage further development and market penetration of this (fuel-saving) technology," Grundler says.


"Potential reputation damage to the technology is a very valid point. We hope that doesn't come out of this," Michels says.

[Fushigi]

As a point of comparison to the mileage numbers Buck posted, my 99 Mitsu Galant with a 3L V6 and a curb weight over 3500 pounds (and nearly 90K miles) was EPA rated at 19 city/27 highway. My average is 24-25MPG in predominantly city driving and 26-28 highway.

I'm surprised my car gets better city than a Corolla and is very close to the Civic Hybrid.

[CougTek]

I think they were driving like freaking psychos to achieve only 29mpg on their Corolla LE. I drove more than 660 kilometers last week and I put 44 liters of fuel at the pomp afterward. That gives me an average of 35mpg with my Corolla LE. I usually drive 12mp/h above the speed limit on the highway and I accelerate faster than most on the stops when I'm driving in the city.

Anyway, I don't know how they get their 29mpg average and say the Corolla's range is 430 miles. The Corolla's tank has a capacity of 50 liters (13.2 gallons). 29mpg * 13.2gallons = 383 miles. 430miles/13.2 gallons = 32.6mpg. So...

All I know is that I do around 35mpg combined with mine, a 2004 Corolla LE.

To get only 29mpg with a Corolla, they must have burned a set of tires and drive on a cross country trail or something.

[Clocker]

Here's more info on GM's strategy:

GM's 3-Part Hybrid Strategy
The automaker rolls out pickups, cars and buses.
IndustryWeek
July 1, 2004
By John Teresko

General Motors Corp.'s 2005 lineup will begin showing hybrid vehicles at retail, but a bus fleet with GM hybrid technology is already being delivered.

What if the nine largest U.S. cities replaced their 13,000 conventional buses with versions using hybrid power plants? More than 40 million gallons of fuel would be saved annually, says GM.

The occasion for that estimate: lasts month's delivery of a fleet of 235 GM hybrid-equipped buses to Seattle's King County Transit Authority. The fleet, which represents the biggest single order for hybrid buses yet, teams GM's hybrid technology with a chassis built by New Flyer of Winnipeg, Manitoba, and diesel engines from Caterpillar Inc.

GM calculates the Seattle fleet's annual fuel savings potential at more than 750,000 gallons, but other benefits also contribute to a compelling case for hybrids, says Detroit-based Tom Stephens, group vice president GM Power Train. "In addition to delivering a 60% improvement in fuel economy, the smaller internal combustion engines used in hybrid systems also help minimize emissions."

He also credits the hybrid power system with boosting the acceleration rate by 50%.

Stephens says hybrid technology also improves operating characteristics to make the bus experience more pleasant for passengers and bystanders alike. "Electrically assisted starts are smooth and quiet, without the increased diesel engine rpm and torque converter noise of conventional power trains."

In the hybrid vehicle concept, the energy released in braking is no longer simply dissipated as heat. It's recovered and stored in a nickel metal hydride battery for use during acceleration.

The operating characteristics of hybrids also permit longer oil change intervals for the diesel engine and transmission because the battery-powered propulsion mode automatically prevents oil-damaging overloads.

The next stage of GM's hybrid strategy comes into play with the 2005 lineup. Both the Chevrolet Silverado and the GMC Sierra pickups will have hybrid versions. Stephens says hybrid offerings for 2006 will be expanded with the Chevrolet Malibu and a sport utility -- the Saturn Vue.

For 2008, GM will target fuel economy gains of 25%-35% by enhancing its hybrid approach with features such as displacement-on-demand. Stephens says such systems will be introduced first on the Chevy Tahoe and the GMC Yukon.

[sechs]

Does anyone make a chargeable hybrid-electric vehicle?

[Howell]

Does anyone make a chargeable hybrid-electric vehicle?

I think I can see what you are after but even if there was one all of the current vehicles turn the IC engine on at around 15MPH anyway.