Microsoft Programming Languages

[Prof.Wizard]

If you had to choose (by force!) one of Microsoft's Visual Studio languages, which one would you take and why?

[Fushigi]

I'm not a developer, but if I had to choose it would be C++ since it's the closest implementation that follows an actual standard. A friend works for Wind River and uses VC++. They use it to create apps for multiple platforms, including Sun, NT, etc.

I thought VJ++ had been killed.

No C# <snicker> or Visual Foxpro?

- Fushigi

[Will Rickards]

VB is nice for RAD stuff.
But any complex stuff and you are leaving the language and using the
underlying windows API, which is basically C.

Visual C++ really is nice, but it requires the most programmer skill.

[HellDiver]

Best Microsoft Programming Language
1. Frankly that sounds like "Hey, what's your favorite way of having your fingers chopped off?"
2. If VBscript/VBA can be at least remotely called "Micro$oft languages", then Visual C++ certainly can't. It's not a language to begin with, it's an integrated development environment for Windoze (IDE). And C++ isn't Micro$oft's, it's Bjarne Stroustrup's! All M$ did was implement it, and in one godawful way at that, one must admit, polluting it somewhat with their "vision of how things should be done". Borland C++, C++Builder, KDevelop and many other visual-style IDEs exist that did the same to C++.
3. C# can probably be called "M$ language" - it's just another of their crappy patented and proprietary things like VBA, VBscript, etc.
4. Prof, what the hell are you trying to do? "What's the best language ever?", "what language will replace other languages?", "what's the best micro$oft language?"... Are you planning on becoming a programmer and want to decide what you should start learning or something?

[CougTek]

I messed only a few days with VB. The only programming languages I used before that were assembly (mostly), Bordland C and some Basic for DOS in the 80's (I forgot most of it). I didn't like my experience on VB. Not enough control, too many variables already defined and apparently set in concrete. I'm not a programmer though, so my opinion here ain't as valuable as the one of some others (I'm talking about those who don't believe they are born with The Absolute Knowledge About Everything).

All the programmers I know despise VB though. The way they talk about it, it seems to be some kind of horror show.

I saw a few benchmarks last year (in PC-Mag so take for what it is) comparing the speed of C++ programs compiled with several compilers. MS and Intel came first, Bordland was average and there were a least another one slower. I guess MS C++ compiler must be better than their average piece of software. Never ran tests myself to compare however, never had to either.

I don't have much knowledge about MS' J++. If I had to program somethnig in Java, I would chose Sun's products instead of Microsoft's.



4. Prof, what the hell are you trying to do? "What's the best language ever?", "what language will replace other languages?", "what's the best micro$oft language?"...

Every member is free to ask what he wants as long as it isn't considered offensive material. If the subject of a thread annoys you, no one is forcing you to read it, even less to participate to it.

[Mercutio]

Visual Foxpro is the only Microsoft language I've spent any significant amount of time with and is the only MS language I see with any interesting advantages over standard languages (Delphi, for example, which is really nice) - Foxpro has a REALLY high-quality database engine integrated into it. Work with SQL is VERY straightforward in Fox. Not nearly as brain-dead as VB/Access (Acces? I can't understand Access at all. I design tables in access and do all the coding in VB. I don't get straight-up Access development at all). I've never used VC++. I'm told it's the subject of nightmares.

I have zero knowledge of Microsoft's Java or C# offerings.

My educational background included ZERO windows programming. There's a lot of stuff about Windows development that I absolutely don't understand.

Of course, the other side of this is that programming stopped being fun the first time I got paid for it, and it isn't like I've invested any time learning anything about it since.

[Prof.Wizard]

OK, first things first:

LOL, of course I didn't create this thread to irritate you (dear HellDiver!)... :P The idea came when I was browsing Microsoft's site for new stuff <yes I do it now and then> and fell on the pages of the imminent launch (in 9 days time) of Visual Studio .NET.

My poll's option have been four. I presumed the "Visual" versions of C/C++, Basic, and J++ the languages with the most penetration to the developers' world and categorized as Others all the rest that's newer (Fox Pro, C#, etc.) and/or more specialized (for more specific jobs).

Actually, the J++ project is more alive than ever since the new version, which is currently beta and not included in the new Visual Studio packet for the time being, is called Visual Studio J# .NET... Microsoft has most probably a certain something for the "sharp" symbol and the .NET suffix... :wink:

Last but not least, if someone is using a modern Windows OS (dear HellDiver), why shouldn't he use one of the Visual Studio developing tools to write his code? I think it's the most integrated tool for the creation of Windows apps. It's like using Windows XP with Office XP. You can always do your job with OpenOffice or StarOffice, but which one is most integrated with the OS, eh?

PS. No, I'm not thinking of becoming a programmer or deviating from my primary field of studies. But I can always start writing code as a hobby, provided I take a summer course for the basics. :)

[Mercutio]

Minor correction: I'm pretty sure the FoxPro codebase pre-dates C++. FoxPro is a Clipper derivative, much like the ancient package dBase, which was practically synonymous with PC database software in the earliest days of DOS ('81 or '82), while C++ wasn't implemented at all until '83 or '84.

Of course, that makes both languages almost 20. Even Java's older than you think it is; Sun was working on the project that turned into java in the late 80s, as I understand things.

[HellDiver]

LOL, of course I didn't create this thread to irritate you (dear HellDiver!)...
Well, I didn't think you did. Judging by several of your questions - on the contrary, looks like you're trying to make up your mind about something, or decide somehting, and you're trying to nail the answer using a "fork" method... ;)


Last but not least, if someone is using a modern Windows OS (dear HellDiver), why shouldn't he use one of the Visual Studio developing tools to write his code?
Well, that'll depend on what he's trying to do. If he's doing some RAD (Rapid Application Development) there are great (better?) alternatives in the form of Delphi and C++Builder. If he's doing quality, no-nonsense Windoze development (i.e. in Assembly or Win32 API) - there are the Borlands (although v5 had some tough past!).
But in a word, the answer to "why shouldn't he" would be BLOATWARE!!! That's one of the reasons I shifted fields from Windoze code development to embedded systems - I got sick of M$ horseshit.


I think it's the most integrated tool for the creation of Windows apps.
That doesn't necessarily means it's the best for the job - it all depends on the job. Besides, IDEs like Delphi/C++Builder/Kylix are probably at least a match features-wise.


But I can always start writing code as a hobby, provided I take a summer course for the basics. :)
You won't need to take no summer courses for that. All you need is a rig to play with, a good book to read and some will to do it.

Back to your original question of "If you had to choose (by force!) one of Microsoft's Visual Studio languages, which one would you take and why?"... Just like with programming languages in general, it all depends on what you're trying to do. RAD - VB. Web - VJ++. Windoze - VC++. DBs - VisFoxPro. This is precisely the reason each one of the tools was included into the Visual Studio package - because they don't duplicate one another's purpose, but rather aimed at different tasks. Coincidentally, a lot of people use VC++ for C/C++ development not directly related to windows - just because it has a nice IDE with debugger and several very strong 3rd party add-on tools (that replace some of the screwed-up original M$ functionality).

[HellDiver]

...and fell on the pages of the imminent launch (in 9 days time) of Visual Studio .NET
As an afterthought. Oh, yeah. That's another excellent reason to stay away from M$ development tools - .NET. Very bad shit is inbound in the form of this .NET thing, and I know I for one - don't want to be a part of it.

BTW, Prof - how did your activation of Windoze XP go? Smoothly I presume? ;)

The other way to look at .NET is as a continuation of the great M$'s bloatware tradition. To be able to do anything more than "Hello World" under Windoze in VC++ you have to learn truckload of APIs and architectures : MFC, ADO, DAO, COM, COM+, DCOM, Doc/View (the list goes on)... And now, there's .NET. It almost looks like M$ are trying to make the bulk of their money from educational activities (books, courses, degrees, seminars) rather than selling software - they keep creating APIs, architectures and concepts without which you can't do anything in Windoze at a frightening rate!

[Mercutio]

All those three letter acronyms HD listed above are the precise reason I never got into programming on Windows.

[Prof.Wizard]

OK, I'm thinking to try my luck with Visual C#... Modern, powerful, flexible.... :)
And there's a great number of books out there showing its tricks.

Isn't that a median solution?! I need a language to create scientific/bio-informatics projects. Not too much complex or sophisticated, but I need a language with enough fine-tuning options.

[Mercutio]

Try Matlab. It is absolutely tuned to the tasks you're describing.

[timwhit]

OK, I'm thinking to try my luck with Visual C#... Modern, powerful, flexible.... :)
And there's a great number of books out there showing its tricks.

Isn't that a median solution?! I need a language to create scientific/bio-informatics projects. Not too much complex or sophisticated, but I need a language with enough fine-tuning options.


VB is the easiest language to program in. It might not run huge blocks of code as fast as VC++ but it is fine for most windows apps. I wrote DB code in VB all last summer. It is not hard and you can do some pretty complex things with it. It is not restrictive like some other people have said. There isn't anything that you can't do with VB.

-Tim

[timwhit]

BTW, I have VS.Net. I will install it and let you know how it is. 7 f'ing CDs.

-Tim

[Mercutio]

Did the new version of FoxPro come with VS.NET?

[timwhit]

Did the new version of FoxPro come with VS.NET?


I didn't see an option for it in setup. BTW I have the Architect edition so its supposed to have everything. A full install takes 3GB.

-Tim

[James]

There isn't anything that you can't do with VB.

Build OSF/1 executables that run on Alpha? ;)

[Prof.Wizard]

Build OSF/1 executables that run on Alpha? ;)

LOL... Then VB is for me... I won't be doing that for sure James... :-?

Mercutio, I'll give a good search regarding MatLab... I want to see which are my alternatives. The reason I wanted to try C# is because it's a direct derivative of C/C++ which are the most used languages... So I could actually even get online help. And because there's a LOT of stuff you can read on these matters. (I could even sneak in a "C" course in the Department of Informatics of my University... :wink: )

C/C++/C# is like British/American/Australian English... high-penetration languages which once you learn them (even at a basic level) you can find your way around using one or the other... or at least this is how I see it.

[Mercutio]

C# shares very little of its heritage with C and C++. Microsoft is forcing it on developers by doing little things like publishing huge amounts of sample code in C# and dropping even mention of the word 'java' from anything microsoft-related. C# is only penetrating because a pin-head in Redmond decided to make it difficult for a certain class of developers to do things differently.

If you want to learn general-use programming, I would strongly suggest that you start with ANSI C or with C++, or with Java. I would likewise suggest looking at Delphi over VB.
There are good reasons for all of the above recommendations, but what it boils down to is, you can either learn to do things properly, or you can do things the microsoft way - which offers a lot of crutches but also creates a lot of bad habits (particularly in VB, where the IDE will actually fill in keywords for you).

[timwhit]

There are good reasons for all of the above recommendations, but what it boils down to is, you can either learn to do things properly, or you can do things the microsoft way - which offers a lot of crutches but also creates a lot of bad habits (particularly in VB, where the IDE will actually fill in keywords for you).


VC++ fills in stuff and has all the same crutches that VB or VBA has, so if you want to use an unadulterated language write Java code in notepad then run it on a unix box across telnet. Thats what I used to do, but its such a pain in the ass.

If you want to write simple programs to save you time I would not bother learning C++ (or C# which I know nothing about). They are just way too complex for a beginner who wants to write simple code. I like Java's structure more than C++ and VB, but if I want to write an app real fast I would write it in VB or VBA.

-Tim

[Prof.Wizard]

Can Visual Basic access hardware?

The most complex thing we might do (in co-operation with the department of electrical engineering) is connecting an EEG with the PC to study the spikes with a custom program.

The connection would be (of course) custom, most probably via serial port. Can it be done?

Can you write a program in VB that accesses the parallel, serial, or USB ports? I/O direct capability is something we might use... C/C++ can do it as far as I know. What about Borland/VB?

[Prof.Wizard]

What I like about the new .NET Visual Studio packet is the seemless co-operation (according to Microsoft) of the various development tools. It says, for example, that you can actually write the core of the program in VB, one or two more complex components in VC++, and something else (eg. a web app) in VJ#...

Of course, you can do this with other programs as well, but the integration is more complete with the Visual Studio suite.

Actually, since the programs I will create will be 100% Windows apps, since VB is indeed very powerful if its latest incarnations (2000/XP), and since it's the easier of all to learn and master for a novice... why should I try something else?!

To the moment, viable alternatives are Matlab and Delphi...

[timwhit]

Can Visual Basic access hardware?


Yes VB is able to access a serial port.

-Tim

[Prof.Wizard]

What about a parallel port?
A USB?
An infrared?

Can you write an Internet browser for example? (Windows specific of course)

[Mercutio]

Writing a passable web browser with VB is possible with maybe as little as a few dozen lines of code and two or three OCXes. Basically, you have to have IE installed to make it work, but it can be done very easily. Beginner stuff, really.

Starting fresh might be a bit more difficult, but at its heart all a browser does is send text and receive text for display. A programming language that can't handle that is several shades of useless.

[Prof.Wizard]

From what I understood, as long as you work in the Windows enviroment with VB (well, you can't do else anyway...), you can do literally everything... 8)

[Mercutio]

As long as you're willing to work with their prepackaged components, yes.
If you find yourself wanting or needing to do something different, good luck.

[time]

That's one of the bigger differences between VB and Delphi. It's dead easy to create new components in Delphi, so there's a veritable supermarket of free and shareware components available all over the net. Which you can tailor to your own needs or just write your own.

Delphi is superior to VB in several significant ways, but I'm not going to bore you with the details. What's also interesting is the scope for mutual exchange of components between Delphi and Borland's C Builder.

Which brings me to your belief that learning any C will enable you to use OOP versions, Prof. Guess again. That's the easy part, and it's not hard to switch between C, Pascal, and VB, although VB has more idiosyncracies.

[Prof.Wizard]

One of the reasons you SF freaks drive me crazy is that you're (almost) always RIGHT!!! :D
One of the best articles I've read. And clearly states all I wanted to know... (http://www.latiumsoftware.com/en/articles/00010.php3)

Mercutio and time, believe me guys... I'm just afraid of going to a non-MS product... :( That's all... I had such a disturbing experience with Linux (remember?), that I wouldn't want to leave again the Beast... Only if that else is really very interesting, very compatible, and very friendly... Borland Delphi 6 Personal seems the right tool for me, although bear in mind that I'm not coming from an IT enviroment and I don't have that much of extra time to read and read tons of books to program 10 lines of code.

I need your suggestions for a last time... what to do?
Visual Basic .net or Delphi 6 Personal

Thanks for your time... :)

[Prof.Wizard]

Delphi Success Stories: (http://sandbrooksoftware.com/DPSC/Articles/WhyDelphi.shtml) All these people are saying that it has the easiness of Visual Basic and the power of Visual C++...

It's almost what I want... Pascal in respect to Basic and C/C++ is older or newer as a language?

[HellDiver]

I've skimmed the first article you linked to. Most of it is pretty much true. Among the things to remember is that if you start out with Delphi, you have several growth paths before you : Delphi->C++Builder->VisualC++ and Delphi->Kylix->Linux development, for example. There's pretty much nothing to move over to directly from VB.

As far as VCL components availability goes - I can confirm that myself, there's more stuff out there than you can imagine and most of it is either free or available for laughable fee with sources included (I never seriously used Delphi, but I did use C++Builder for some project).

Pascal was created in late '60s, officially defined in 1970 and officially standartized as ISO 7185 in 1983. In 1990 a slightly revised ISO 10206 Extended Pascal Standard was published.
First Object Pascal implementation was released in 1986, with "Object-Oriented Extensions to Pascal" published by Pascal Standards Committee in 1993.
Basic was officially defined in 1963, "Minimal BASIC" was standartized as ISO 6373 in 1984 and "Full BASIC" was standartized as ISO/IEC 10279 in 1991.
Visual Basic is a moving target, not a language, has no specific standard and gets bloated every year or two, so no point in giving any dates.
C was created in 1969-1973, was revised in 1977-1979 and officially standardized as ISO/IEC 9899 in 1990.
C++ was created in 1979-1983, commercially released for the first time in 1985, revised in the late '80s and officially standartized as ISO/IEC 14882 in 1998.

If you give any though to the years quoted above you'll begin to realize that terms "older" and "newer" are very relative in this busines, as all of those languages were in widespread usage before the official ISO standards were ratified, yet various implementations differed slightly from one another as languages kept developing.

"Older" does not necessarily mean neither "more powerful" nor "more flexible" nor "more complex".

[HellDiver]

Grrr... "Business", that is...

[HellDiver]

I must be pretty tired 'cause I keep goofing. Here's the last correction I care to add - "any thought"...

[Mercutio]

C is older than Pascal. C++ is actually fairly "new". Pascal is an interesting language; like the newer lanugage Python, it's designed as a "learning" language - a perfect introduction for students.

Personally, I find Pascal syntax to be something of a pain in the @$$, but Delphi is otherwise a very solid product.

Interestingly, older versions of Delphi are often on the freebie CDs that come with computer magazines sometimes, so a legal copy of Delphi is within your reach even if you can't afford the $99 student version.

Delphi also comes with a decent printed reference if you buy a boxed copy (I have v1 and v3).

As far as "non-MS" languages... Borland has been around a long, long time, and makes nothing but products for developers. Their C++ Builder and Delphi products are both very, very good packages, and Borland is not going anywhere.

[HellDiver]

C is older than Pascal.
Strictly speaking it's a couple of years younger, at least if you consider the age of a language to be based on a year in which a first more-or-less tolerable written definition showed up (which is a very logical way to determine language's age, IMO).


Their C++ Builder and Delphi products are both very, very good packages
True enough. One thing to keep in mind - both C++Builder and Delphi's online help systems (at least for versions 1 through 4 of each) and are relatively OK, but nowhere near either VC++5's on-line help system nor MSDN (i.e. VC++6's on-line help system) usability-wise. This I can say as someone who had to use both for extended periods of time. IIRC (from my brief forced period of interaction with VB5) VB5's help system sort of sucked too, was notably worse than that of VC++5/6 and about of the same usability as that of C++Builder/Delphi.


...and Borland is not going anywhere.
<sigh> At the moment, about the only company I can wholeheartedly say is not going anywhere is Mocro$oft. Unfortunately... As for Borland... At present - there are no indications, but what will happen tomorrow - who know?

[Prof.Wizard]

One of the most complex things I will be doing (most probably in less than 5 years) is writing an app or two for my job. One of the reasons I appended again this thread was that small, cool simulation program some guys from the Tehran University of Medical Sciences (http://www.neurosurgery-online.com/abstracts/5001/NURO50010222_abs.html) created using Delphi 5. Now don't laugh just because the app comes from Iran! The article has been just published in the premium neurosurgery journal of the medical community.

If you have time or will, download the app (it's really small!) and see for yourself what I'll want to do with my programming... You can download the app here (www.tums.ac.ir/download/index.asp)!

[HellDiver]

Downloaded. Had a lookie. Didn't understand a thing, but I suppose that's to be expected - closest I ever got to anything that sounds remotely medical were neural networks... :lol:

Anyhows, if some Iranian folks have done it using Delphi, I guess a Greek should manage just fine! :wink:

One thing I'll tell you - as long as you'll be using pretty much anything except VB, you'll be learning how to do things "old skool", i.e. the proper way... ;)

P.S. The above sentence mentioning different nationals and possibly implying their programming or mental skills may be inferior is intended as joke only, and only as a response to Prof's "don't laugh just because...". It does not necessarily represent my true views on those issues! How's that for being politically correct? ;)

[Prof.Wizard]

LOL. Crystal clear HellDiver! :D

Shall I tell you something funny? I want to work it out the opposite way: I know the medical approach (basic & clinical neurosciences), but I don't know a thing regarding the electrical engineering & computer science approach... :(

I would love to learn some stuff regarding communication & information theory, signal processing, and neural networks in depth... Unfortunately, med school doesn't provide such stuff. These are advanced courses in Neuroengineering, one of the most fascinating fields of today's applied science. Yes, you presumed right. This is post-graduate stuff... :roll:

Back to our topic: You know, I admit that I'll probably give a glimpse to Visual Basic .NET just for the heck of it. But I found that the Delphi 6 Personal costs a mere $50 (half of MS's program) and is very good for starters in Pascal. :wink:

Believe me HellDiver, I really want to do things the right way. I recall the growth paths (C++, Kylix) you mentioned earlier. But there are some things you must not get for granted when talking to a non-IT person. Six months ago I didn't know even what the verb "compile" meant. Now, although familiar with the basic logic of programming i still haven't touched a thing regarding code. I have a very busy schedule, leaving me at most 4-5 hours per week to read and exercise me in a new language. I want a productive and straight-forward tool (so C/C++ is out of the question at a first moment) which will not limit my apps to stupid-looking buggy GUIs with no actual function. I take as example the cool simulation those Iranian neurosurgeons did... 8)

PS. I think I read somewhere that MS's .NET in VB is using something similar to Delphi's VCL components. Is it true?
PPS. Can you write me one darn positive thing about VB?!? :P

[Mercutio]

The IDE (Integrated development environment) looks pretty nice. And newer versions of VB tend to be much better than those that precede it.

VB is very good for certain types of small projects.

VB still has a lot of room to grow to be comparable with other languages, unfortunately.

[HellDiver]

PS. I think I read somewhere that MS's .NET in VB is using something similar to Delphi's VCL components. Is it true?
No clue. Frankly, I'm absolutely not interested in .NET, so naturally I don't follow the headlines. Traditionally VB used OCXes and stuff like that that can be roughly compared to VCL components, but whether that's the case with .NET I don't know...


PPS. Can you write me one darn positive thing about VB?!? :P
NO!!!

Ok, ok, there are obviously some things about VB that could be called positive, but that would very much depend on what's your angle on things...
For starters, one thing VB has going for it is that you can teach a bloody monkey to code some basic stuff in VB. Sometimes that is important. The drawback (I'll bet you knew this was coming! ;) ) of course is that as a result all of VB code looks like it was written by a horde of monkeys!
Also, if you were to spend your entire development career revolving around small things in M$ Office in Windoze, VB would blend in very nicely - you'd be able to code entire (albeit somewhat slow, ugly and backwards) applications in VB, customize Office with macros and stuff in VBA (Visual Basic for Applications), really stress out Access (and possibly Excel - I did quite a bit of former but haven't tried any Excel mangling) - all that without ever leaving the comfort of your VB bubble. But of course, there are always alternatives, often much better alternatives to such mindset...

I think I also had another "positive" thing to add, but it slipped my mind... I'll add it if I recall it later on. ;)

[Prof.Wizard]

I want to be programming apps at least as complex and sophisticated as those made by those Iranian neurosurgeons... at least!

[timwhit]

Helldiver-you keep saying that everything in VB is backwards. Have you ever coded anything in VB. It is essentially BASIC with some improvments like being Object oriented.

Maybe I should post some VB code so you can see that it is super easy to read and write.



Option Explicit

Private Sub this_is_easy()
Dim i as integer
i = 1
Do While i < 10
picbox1.caption=i * 64
i++
Loop
End Sub

'Everything in VB is standard BASIC, which makes it very easy to use

The only thing is that I wouldn't really try to start using VB.Net the older editions will do everything that you will want to do, but they are easier to use. Pick up a copy of VB 6 and try it out. You can probably find it for very cheap.

-Tim

[Mercutio]

Helldriver, I have personally seen a 50,000-line app written in whatever the hell Excel v5's language was. I was written by an acquaintance of mine for use by vendors doing business with one of one of the local Steel Mills. It's really a pretty amazing thing.

[timwhit]

Helldriver, I have personally seen a 50,000-line app written in whatever the hell Excel v5's language was. I was written by an acquaintance of mine for use by vendors doing business with one of one of the local Steel Mills. It's really a pretty amazing thing.


Excel's language is VBA. It is almost exactly like VB except it has a few more commands specific to Excel.

I wrote an Excel app this summer for a local business, it was maybe 1000 lines of code. And it simply reformated a very large worksheet so that it could be printed and be readable. It would have taken several hours to reformat it by hand, and with the program it could be reformatted in approximately 30 seconds.

You really can do some pretty amazing stuff using VBA with Excel or any of the other office apps.

-Tim

[Mercutio]

Excel 5 was the version included with Office 4.3, which pre-dated full VBA adoption in Office by two releases and probably 5 years.

Hard to explain what the app does, except to say that it provides a number of documents that US Steel requires its vendors fill out EXACTLY but will not itself provide in electronic form or in paper form outside their plant. It's time consuming. There's more but that's the big thing.

[HellDiver]

Helldiver-you keep saying that everything in VB is backwards. Have you ever coded anything in VB.
Actually - yes, a little. Wasn't my choice, really, it was client's call. ;) I did dig through some other people's code, though (kind of a 3-rd party debugging), and had to port some VB code into VC++. And I did some serious VBA coding under Access, which is essentially the same thing, spare minor differences AFAIK. So, yes, I know what VB code looks like. And it's backwards. ;)

I am certainly not going to engage in any kind of pissing match regarding what programming language is better, easier and such. VB has its niche, it stayed there till now, and it'll die in it some day. To you the excerpt you posted seems "easy to read and write". To me it looks backwards, bad habit, and very bug-prone (especially if picbox1.caption is a string!).



Helldriver, I have personally seen a 50,000-line app written in whatever the hell Excel v5's language was.
May very well be. Dunno what "language" was used in v5, but as Timwhit suggests, in contemporary Excels it would make sense that it would be VBA as VBA is pretty much the standard "behind the scenes" language of M$ Office. I just never tried coding VBA under Excel myself (unlike under Access and VC++), therefore I said "possibly Excel".

[HellDiver]

Helldiver-you keep saying that everything in VB is backwards. Have you ever coded anything in VB.
Come think of it - strange question, really. It would be kind of stupid of me to diss a language I have no knowledge of, don't you find?

[Mercutio]

I got a real kick out of reading about this programming language... (http://www.geocities.com/connorbd/varaq/)

[Prof.Wizard]

LOL: Var' aq?! That's more difficult than C++... :lol:

Guys, truce! I'll try both languages... Most probably I'll go with Delphi 6 Personal buying a couple of introductory books as well. If I manage to get a copy of VB .net I will install it to see what it looks like, or how I can use it for secondary, hobbyist projects. From what I've understood, one can start programming in VB even without special knowledge, so I'll take that in my advantage to experiment in creating GUIs and Office macros... well, in any case, things that can be done easier and faster with VB instead of Delphi. 8)

[timwhit]

Prof: You don't even need a copy of VB to write office macros. VBA is already built in to Word, Excel, Access, ect. Just goto tools->macros->visual basic editor. Check help with any questions you have. VBA help is very complete and I have been able to answer endless questions after spending a few minutes browsing.

-Tim

[HellDiver]

Speaking of digit "6"... Looks like Borland finally gave birth to C++Builder 6. Should be an interesting thing to toy around with... Looks like they're shifting over to CLX cross-platform component library, allowing direct compatibility with [future] Borland C++ products for Linux.
Anyone has a clue regarding components compatibility between C++B6 and Delphi6/Kylix2 ?

As for GUI design and such... With todays RAD tools it matters not if you're using Kylix, VB, C++Builder or Delphi, you can create a perfectly functioning GUI/DB/net app with next to zero knowledge in programming. You just drag and drop, type in a couple of object names, hit "Build" and it works. That's the idea behind RAD - Rapid Application Development.

Good luck, Prof with whatever you choose. Anyways, it's not a Catholic marriage, you know, you can always switch horses if you don't like it!

[timwhit]

Good luck, Prof with whatever you choose. Anyways, it's not a Catholic marriage, you know, you can always switch horses if you don't like it!


And after you learn the basics of programming it is very easy to switch between different languages as they all enploy the same concepts, its just that the syntax changes...

-Tim

[Prof.Wizard]

Guys, I'm one lucky ass for sure... I've just noticed that one of the most prominent Delphi gurus, Marco Cantú, is Italian and gives lectures and seminars every now and then around the country. He probably comes at least one per year in the capital too... :wink:

My decision is final. Since programming will be more than a hobby for me, I'm bound to go for Delphi... I'm buying Delphi 6 Personal when I finish the exam period, with a couple of other introductory books as well...

Marco is running a cool site (http://www.marcocantu.com) with all the stuff I need to get familiar. This includes online books of "Essential Pascal", "Essential Delphi", and the top-notch (sorry for this, but already downloaded it as e-book from KaZaA :wink: ) 1100-page "Mastering Delphi 6"... He also runs newsletters and newsgroups...

Guys... SKY IS THE LIMIT! 8)

(Thank you for helping me making my choice. I'll be going Delphi cause from there, with some more will, I can move to other languages much more easily... Visual Basic is something I can do whenever I want afterall... :) )

[HellDiver]

Ah, yes - the enthusiasm of the naive... :lol:

Well, don't let this remark put you down, Prof. Maybe you will like this "programming" thing after all - who knows?

P.S. Frankly, I think I felt just about the same... a very long time ago! Except back then on PCs memory was measured in dozens of kilo-bytes and "hard drive" meant passing a stretch of bumpy road...

[Prof.Wizard]

Could anyone link me to book titles of Delphi for beginners?

A quick search on the 'Net and Amazon didn't give me any good results. There are only books about experienced (or even guru) Delphi users out there. Nothing simple for beginners. When I mean simple I mean a book starting from basic Pascal syntax and coding, rich with examples, but always Delphi-specific. It's so strange an old language like Pascal/Delphi doesn't have zillions of titles for beginners...

PS. By principle, I don't buy "For Dummies" titles... :evil:
PPS. This lack of learning material is really killing me. I go to the local bookstores and find tons of titles how to program in VB and almost nothing about Delphi for novices. :(

[LiamC]

After spending 3 or 4 years doing Access/VB, I know I prefer Delphi :)

Prof, I'll dig up some titles for you later. The absolute, most important thing to do though is to understand the Delphi object model. I've watched a ton of VB/C++ programmers code Delphi - thinking it a toy language - write a ton of code - and get frustrated - to do relatively simple things simply because they don't understand the object model. If you are writing a lot of code - you've missed someting - stop working so hard.

[time]

I don't know if it's still available, but Delphi Programming Explorer (http://www.drbob42.com/reviews/explorer.htm) is intended for people learning Delphi from scratch.

Unfortunately, it's intended for Delphi 1, although last time I looked Delphi 1 (16-bit) was still bundled with subsequent versions. Delphi 1 is fine for learning the IDE, basic object model and Pascal, however. The book was updated for Delphi 2 at least. Here's a review, (http://www.delphizine.com/bookreviews/1883577721_b/1883577721_b.asp) although I wouldn't worry about the Delphi 2 stuff much, seeing the latest version is 6.

[time]

Er, I meant "... seeing the latest version is 7".

[e_dawg]

If I could only use one MS language, it would be VB/VBA. Why? 1. I need it for Excel and Access programming and 2. that's all I know... :)

Good luck with Delphi. Once you programming fundamentals (variables, iterative structures, conditional/selection structures, functions/methods, classes, objects, and "passing") then you just have to become familiar with the particular object model you're using.

BTW, I guess VB does lull you into bad habits. I don't really know how to program... I just muck around in the IDE and keep on fixing things until it compiles :)

[Prof.Wizard]

I don't know if it's still available, but Delphi Programming Explorer (http://www.drbob42.com/reviews/explorer.htm) is intended for people learning Delphi from scratch.

Unfortunately, it's intended for Delphi 1...
This is my main problem. The few titles I found about learning from zero were intended for too-old versions of Delphi. I don't assume that it changes a hell lot, afterall only the advanced features do really change from 6-to-7... but this shows a programming language that's not "suggested" for new/novice programmers... only for those who are fed up with VB/C and need a powerful RAD suite and already know a lot about programming.

[Prof.Wizard]

If I could only use one MS language, it would be VB/VBA. Why? 1. I need it for Excel and Access programming and 2. that's all I know... :)

Good luck with Delphi. Once you programming fundamentals (variables, iterative structures, conditional/selection structures, functions/methods, classes, objects, and "passing") then you just have to become familiar with the particular object model you're using.

BTW, I guess VB does lull you into bad habits. I don't really know how to program... I just muck around in the IDE and keep on fixing things until it compiles :)
You know, I think you're right afterall. I'm studying to be a doctor of medicine, not a professional programmer. I don't have aspirations to stress Pascal to its limits...
Yes, VB is a hell sum of bad habits but afterall it's those MS Office applications I will need to trim to my needs. And what's so wrong about having automated-code and a fancy IDE to help you do your work fast and efficiently? Frontpage too puts HTML without you knowing it, but it DOES build pages quickly as well!

I think VB will complete my needs at 99.99%. Jee, if I happen to be on the rest .01% I'll pay a professional programmer.

[e_dawg]

If you are looking for an intro VB/programming book, I found Learn to Program with Visual Basic by John Smiley to be pretty good. John makes it seem like you're taking one of his intro college programming courses by writing like he speaks -- it's a conversational style that a prof might use in his lectures. I'm not too fond of his insistence on also teaching you about the Systems Development LifeCycle (SDLC) and the software consulting process, as many people don't care about what it takes to be a contract developer or a software consultant... but other than that, it is one of the best intro programming books I have ever seen.

The entire "course" is based on one massive class project, which is to write an sales quotation program for a china shop. In the course of writing this program, you learn things like variables, conditional/selection structures, iterative structures. You learn the basics of programming in a real world context.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1902745000

This book also comes with a learning edition of VB6. You can also get the VB.NET version.

There are also more advanced books in this series like Learn to Program Visual Basic Objects, LTP VB Databases that continue this china shop example to build an inventory management system, etc.

Other VB books include Peter Wright's Beginning Visual Basic 6 from Wrox Press
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1861001053
Wrox has a number of good books in their VB series (VB objects, VB with databases, etc)

For VBA (I assume you will want to write macros in Excel), check out:

John Walkenbach's Excel 2000 Power Programming with VBA
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764532634

Albright's VBA for Modelers: Developing Decision Support Systems Using Excel
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0534380123

Getz and Gilbert's VBA Developer's Handbook
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0782129781

[Howell]

You know, I think you're right afterall. I'm studying to be a doctor of medicine, not a professional programmer. I don't have aspirations to stress Pascal to its limits...

I thought you had your mind set or I would have suggested VB for you too. I understand you to looking for something for easy prototyping. Whip up a quick proof of concept in other words. Although I use C, VB would enable you to get something that works and is relatively pretty (not the code though) out quickly.

If you get to a place where everything works and you just need it to be faster you can pay someone to port it or learn C then. FWIW, I understand the programming language of Lotus Notes is very similar to VB.

[Pradeep]

Did the new version of FoxPro come with VS.NET?

Because FoxPro doesn't use the .Net crap, it isn't included.

[Mercutio]

That just means they didn't take the opportunity to screw it up. That is a good thing.

[JSF]

Prof.Wizard, in my opinion you should go with MS Visual C++ because it offers an ordered growth path as you become more competent with the language and its implementation. As your own programming needs expand beyond those you presently foresee it will not limit you.

With Visual C++ you can start with a Console presentation of simple programs in which output is presented in an emulated DOS window. Your programs can be written in Kernighan and Ritchie’s C, or preferably, in Stroustrup’s C++. None of MS’s bells and whistles are present to confuse you in your early learning process. As you become more proficient with the language you will move to more complex programs best implemented with multiple classes and their implementations; but you can still stick with a Console presentation.

Eventually you will want to print out data and documentation associated with your program. To do this you will want to use your Windows resources. Later you may want your program to evolve into a full Windows style application program with dialog boxes, buttons, check boxes, sliders, scroll bars, etc. These features are preprogrammed for you in the Microsoft Foundation Class (MFC) Library. This is where Visual C++ shines. After all, Windows Operating Systems were developed with Visual C++.

It is my understanding that Visual C#.net addresses the needs of enterprise software developers. Since I have no intention to work with a software development team over a computer network I don’t want to be sucked into another large cash outlay to acquire capabilities I’ll never need. Your projected software needs are different from mine, so your needs will have to guide you in your decision.

I have a lot of Fortran experience, limited Pascal experience and miniscule C++ experience. Currently, I am teaching myself Visual C++ with the aid of several textbooks. I want the modular structure, slick syntax and data controls that C++ offers. It is a language very suited to research and design types who want to generate a personal library of reusable software modules.

Visual C++ is not easily learned. It wasn’t until I acquired Horton’s Beginning Visual C++ 6 with its initial emphasis of Console presentations that I was able to embark on an ordered learning experience. Most textbooks jump immediately into MFC implementations, and this was too big of a jump for me.

If you want a programming language that will serve you well in the future, be prepared to invest significant time. Fortunately, Visual C++ allows you to pace yourself slowly when you have a busy schedule.

Hope this helps, Joe.

[e_dawg]

Nobody disputes that C and its derivatives (C++, Java) are the most important languages for a programmer, but for those with little to no programming background, I still say VB is the way to go. It has two important features:

1. It is easy enough for beginners to program interesting apps quickly. This is important because it builds momentum and enthusiasm, encouraging the beginner to forge ahead with the learning process. When a language has too steep a learning curve for a beginner, it can discourage them altogether (trust me: been there, done that with Java as my 1st language... almost swore off programming forever until VB saved me)

2. The language is easy enough so that you don't have to worry about instantiating a new object, allocating memory, using pointers, and all the other things that can make a newbie programmer starting off in C, C++, and Java feel like a total idiot. With VB, you can learn the basics of programming (variables, conditional/selection structures, and iterative structures) first to build a solid foundation. Then you can move on and tackle OOP (C++, Java) and memory management (C) concepts. Learning everything at once is just too much to ask, resulting in a state where you are just confused (well, that was my expeience, anyways)

[Howell]

I have a lot of Fortran experience, limited Pascal experience and miniscule C++ experience.

Heh, I also started in FORTRAN. After I had been programming on Borland C for a while, I tried to switch to VC++ for the better debugger. I never did figure out how to get my program to display in a console window. I suspected at the time that I would need some MS library. I also didn't understand the need to construct a "project" when I was only writing a 100 line program. I ended up going back to Borland despite the debugger.

[GIANT]

MS Macro Assembler V5.1 is where the future lies! :idea:

[Howell]

MS Macro Assembler V5.1 is where the future lies! :idea:




What? Are they decreasing the version numbers as new versions come out? Ver. 6.11 is available.

[GIANT]

What? Are they decreasing the version numbers as new versions come out? Ver. 6.11 is available.

Heh... I wasn't aware that MS still had MASM available. The last version I ever used was V5.1.

BTW, Intel assembly language makes my head hurt. After years of working with various Motorola and Zilog assemblers (way back when), little endian X86 seems totally bass-ackwards.

[Mercutio]

I think I saw something twisted about Object Oriented Cobol (http://www.infogoal.com/cbd/cbdobj.htm) a while back. That's got to be at LEAST as distubing as x86 assembly.

If only someone would OO-ify RPG... sigh.

Big Iron forever!

[timwhit]

Hey Prof about 1 year yesterday you decided on Delphi as your final choice. But have you been able to program anything in it?

Listen to e_dawg and myself and just try out VB. It's easy and you don't need a degree to program Hello World in it. Actually Java and C++ aren't really that hard to program in. You really don't need pointers or structs or anything like that unless you are doing complicated programming.

I'm going to go rewrite all my programs recursively for fun now.

[Howell]

Hey Prof about 1 year yesterday you decided on Delphi as your final choice. But have you been able to program anything in it?

:o I did not even realize this thread was so old. :o

[Prof.Wizard]

Hey Prof about 1 year yesterday you decided on Delphi as your final choice. But have you been able to program anything in it?

Actually I left the whole endeavor cause
I had much studying to do and clinics to attend. No, all this time I wasn't trying anything else than reading a few lines of Essential Pascal by Marco Cantu.

But believe, I tried to find some titles of "beginner's Delphi" but there nothing is out there.

[Fushigi]

If only someone would OO-ify RPG... sigh.

Big Iron forever!Well, it's not naturally OO, but RPG on the 400 has always been capable of being used to develop OO systems. The 400's OS itself is an OO design and was originally written in RPG (before being re-written in C/C++ a few years ago).

Current RPG IV as implemented can easily interoperate with any other HLL including Java, COBOL, command language, C++, etc. Here (http://www-3.ibm.com/software/awdtools/wds400/about/ile_rpg.html) is a description of the current state of RPG.

What we really need is OO APL! :mrgrn:

- Fushigi